What "Distrubutism" Really Is

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It briefly existed in Russia at the fall of communism, where, as is the apparent human instinct, they swung to radical free market - it was a disaster. To the point where they almost wanted communism back :eek:

It also exists in 99% top level managers I’ve ever met. Oh, and I can see little else in Tea-party economic knee jerking :rolleyes:

In fact, just watch an episode of the Apprentice! 😛
I personally find this a bit insulting. The tea party movement isn’t about “unbridled capitalism”; it’s about reigning in unbridled government expansion and spending and cutting taxes for everyone. I fully support these principles, and it’s no “knee jerk” response. Please be charitable enough to assume that people with whom you disagree may have put as much thought into their beliefs as you have yours.

Peace,
Dante
 
ishii
I am naturally sympathetic to the aims of distributists, but I have no idea how such a system would be implemented and worked out.
Neither has anyone else for an economy – it is based on feelings, and as already seen anyone is free to follow the idea.
In post # 25:
“Those who care to support locally based and smaller-scale agriculture have already been doing so for two decades now by means of community-supported agriculture, which is booming. On a purely voluntary basis, people who wish to support local agriculture pay several hundred dollars at the beginning of the year to provide the farmer with the capital he needs; they then receive locally grown produce for the rest of the year. The organizers of this movement, rather than wasting their time and ours complaining about the need for state intervention, actually did something: they put together a voluntary program that has enjoyed considerable success across the country. Perhaps, if distributists feel as strongly about their position as they claim, this example can provide a model of how their time might be better spent.” What’s Wrong with ‘Distributism’, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. October 6, 2002, at:
[Must Catholics Oppose the Free Market? - LewRockwell]](Must Catholics Oppose the Free Market? - LewRockwell])

Mystic Banana feels apparently that the Welfare State of Labour governments disproves the free enterprise economy even when those governments make sure to hamstring it. The British philosopher, John Locke, had the right idea concerning morality. The Catholic stress on individualism was foreign to many cultures, and Jeremy Waldron, in God, Locke and Equality, 2002, affirms that Locke built his thesis on the doctrine concerning morality; “returning to the standpoint of St Thomas and the Scholastics.” (The Catholic Church And the Counter-Faith, Philip Trower, Family Publications, 2006, p 74).

Post #38: insidecatholic.com/feature/how-john-locke-influenced-catholic-social-teaching.html
*How John Locke Influenced Catholic Social Teaching *, Joe Hargrave, Nov 5, 2010.
“I once believed that Pope Leo XIII’s social encyclicals, if they did not call for a welfare state, could at least be read in such a way to justify that principle. Rereading Rerum Novarum in the light of Locke’s influence, however, it is not possible to sustain this interpretation. On a deeper level, it is clear that Locke and Leo were ultimately dealing with the same issue: setting the boundaries on the scope of government’s legitimate role via natural rights."
 
I personally find this a bit insulting. The tea party movement isn’t about “unbridled capitalism”; it’s about reigning in unbridled government expansion and spending and cutting taxes for everyone. I fully support these principles, and it’s no “knee jerk” response. Please be charitable enough to assume that people with whom you disagree may have put as much thought into their beliefs as you have yours.

Peace,
Dante
It’s not exactly unbridled, is it? We’re talking about the establishment of that fundamental service, Public Health. Public health is a common practice in many of the worlds more developed states. I was amazed when I was first told there was no such thing in the US - I thought the absence of a public health system was the kind of thing common only in developing countries!

And, considering this widespread outrage, I don’t notice any similar complaints about bailing out the big businesses or banks… it happened in the UK too, and it sickens me to think that public money was spent to bail out private interests, but that the bailing out didn’t convert to public benefit - state shares! what do you think?
 
Mystic Banana feels apparently that the Welfare State of Labour governments disproves the free enterprise economy even when those governments make sure to hamstring it. The British philosopher, John Locke, had the right idea concerning morality. The Catholic stress on individualism was foreign to many cultures, and Jeremy Waldron, in God, Locke and Equality, 2002, affirms that Locke built his thesis on the doctrine concerning morality; “returning to the standpoint of St Thomas and the Scholastics.” (The Catholic Church And the Counter-Faith, Philip Trower, Family Publications, 2006, p 74).

…On a deeper level, it is clear that Locke and Leo were ultimately dealing with the same issue: setting the boundaries on the scope of government’s legitimate role via natural rights
."

Catholic stress on individualism? Odd, but it is often accused of the opposite! Anyway, this is too vaguelly presented to constitute a counter argument for me 😉

I’ve read (and appreciated) Locke, and I’m suspicious of your tying him in to ideas such as “natural rights”, which so easily tie into Darwinistic/Fascistic concepts of the same…:mad:

By the way, how much difference is there between “distributism” and “co-operatism”?
 
Mystic Banana
I’ve read (and appreciated) Locke, and I’m suspicious of your tying him in to ideas such as “natural rights”, which so easily tie into Darwinistic/Fascistic concepts of the same…
On the contrary, natural rights are one of the most distinctive aspects of Western civilization developed by the Catholic Church. The origins dated to the twelfth-century commentators on the Decretum, Gratian’s famous compendium of the canon law of the Catholic Church which referred to the Bible, Church fathers, councils and papal statements, and they came to insist that there was a natural right of individuals that derived from the universal natural moral law.

Rights defined from natural law included rights of property, self-defence, non-Christians, marriage.
How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Woods, Regnery 2005, p 198-200].

The concoction of so-called “rights” to things like abortion and homosexual marriage are incompatible with Catholic natural law teaching, and the meaning of a “right” has to be clearly identified and justified before it can be so established.
 
Has anyone directly quoted Rerum Novarum here? Some interesting parts, including those pertaining to Distributism:
The evils of State intrusion into the family:
  1. The contention, then, that the civil government should at its option intrude into and exercise intimate control over the family and the household is a great and pernicious error. True, if a family finds itself in exceeding distress, utterly deprived of the counsel of friends, and without any prospect of extricating itself, it is right that extreme necessity be met by public aid, since each family is a part of the commonwealth. In like manner, if within the precincts of the household there occur grave disturbance of mutual rights, public authority should intervene to force each party to yield to the other its proper due; for this is not to deprive citizens of their rights, but justly and properly to safeguard and strengthen them. But the rulers of the commonwealth must go no further; here, nature bids them stop. Paternal authority can be neither abolished nor absorbed by the State; for it has the same source as human life itself. “The child belongs to the father,” and is, as it were, the continuation of the father’s personality; and speaking strictly, the child takes its place in civil society, not of its own right, but in its quality as member of the family in which it is born. And for the very reason that “the child belongs to the father” it is, as St. Thomas Aquinas says, “before it attains the use of free will, under the power and the charge of its parents.”(4) The socialists, therefore, in setting aside the parent and setting up a State supervision, act against natural justice, and destroy the structure of the home.
Probably from where Distributism gets its name:
  1. …] Among the many and grave duties of rulers who would do their best for the people, the first and chief is to act with strict justice - with that justice which is called distributive - toward each and every class alike.
He notes the importance of land ownership, which seems key to Distributism:
  1. Many excellent results will follow from this; and, first of all, property will certainly become more equitably divided. For, the result of civil change and revolution has been to divide cities into two classes separated by a wide chasm. On the one side there is the party which holds power because it holds wealth; which has in its grasp the whole of labor and trade; which manipulates for its own benefit and its own purposes all the sources of supply, and which is not without influence even in the administration of the commonwealth. On the other side there is the needy and powerless multitude, sick and sore in spirit and ever ready for disturbance. If working people can be encouraged to look forward to obtaining a share in the land, the consequence will be that the gulf between vast wealth and sheer poverty will be bridged over, and the respective classes will be brought nearer to one another. A further consequence will result in the great abundance of the fruits of the earth. Men always work harder and more readily when they work on that which belongs to them; nay, they learn to love the very soil that yields in response to the labor of their hands, not only food to eat, but an abundance of good things for themselves and those that are dear to them. That such a spirit of willing labor would add to the produce of the earth and to the wealth of the community is self evident. And a third advantage would spring from this: men would cling to the country in which they were born, for no one would exchange his country for a foreign land if his own afforded him the means of living a decent and happy life. These three important benefits, however, can be reckoned on only provided that a man’s means be not drained and exhausted by excessive taxation. The right to possess private property is derived from nature, not from man; and the State has the right to control its use in the interests of the public good alone, but by no means to absorb it altogether. The State would therefore be unjust and cruel if under the name of taxation it were to deprive the private owner of more than is fair.
Also, Bl. Frassati was a young Italian inspired by Rerum Novarum.
 
On the contrary, natural rights are one of the most distinctive aspects of Western civilization developed by the Catholic Church. The origins dated to the twelfth-century commentators on the Decretum, Gratian’s famous compendium of the canon law of the Catholic Church which referred to the Bible, Church fathers, councils and papal statements, and they came to insist that there was a natural right of individuals that derived from the universal natural moral law.

Rights defined from natural law included rights of property, self-defence, non-Christians, marriage.
How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Woods, Regnery 2005, p 198-200].

The concoction of so-called “rights” to things like abortion and homosexual marriage are incompatible with Catholic natural law teaching, and the meaning of a “right” has to be clearly identified and justified before it can be so established.
so you’re saying “natural right” theory is the basis of human rights, then? Of course, part of contemporary opposition to natural law is on the basis of it’s religious bias…
 
  1. The contention, then, that the civil government should at its option intrude into and exercise intimate control over the family and the household is a great and pernicious error. True, if a family finds itself in exceeding distress, utterly deprived of the counsel of friends, and without any prospect of extricating itself, it is right that extreme necessity be met by public aid, since each family is a part of the commonwealth. In like manner, if within the precincts of the household there occur grave disturbance of mutual rights, public authority should intervene to force each party to yield to the other its proper due; for this is not to deprive citizens of their rights, but justly and properly to safeguard and strengthen them. But the rulers of the commonwealth must go no further; here, nature bids them stop. Paternal authority can be neither abolished nor absorbed by the State; for it has the same source as human life itself. “The child belongs to the father,” and is, as it were, the continuation of the father’s personality; and speaking strictly, the child takes its place in civil society, not of its own right, but in its quality as member of the family in which it is born. And for the very reason that “the child belongs to the father” it is, as St. Thomas Aquinas says, “before it attains the use of free will, under the power and the charge of its parents.”(4) The socialists, therefore, in setting aside the parent and setting up a State supervision, act against natural justice, and destroy the structure of the home.
But wouldn’t this resolution against state intervention also resolve against religious intervention? Including based on Natural law?
 
It’s not exactly unbridled, is it?
Um, yes, it is. Our national debt and budget deficit have skyrocketed since 2008.
We’re talking about the establishment of that fundamental service, Public Health.
No, we’re talking about the government that has no fiscal restraint. The out-of-control spending is threatening to collapse our currency!
Public health is a common practice in many of the worlds more developed states. I was amazed when I was first told there was no such thing in the US - I thought the absence of a public health system was the kind of thing common only in developing countries!
That “fundamental service” is bankrupting many of your “more developed states”. Even where it is not, it reduces quality and availability of care and results in rationing – an absolutely unacceptable situation. The bottom line is that, while many countries have “free” health care, NONE of them can boast the quality of care, availability of specialists, and outright expertise of our health care system. It’s not perfect; it absolutely needs reform in certain areas. But the costs have already gone up, and the law that was passed will have no effect but to wreck the insurance industry while driving costs through the roof and depleting the quality of the world’s greatest medical industry.

Moreover, “public health” creates a sense of entitlement among the masses, and when the inevitable budget cuts occur, there is or will be rioting in the streets over it.
And, considering this widespread outrage, I don’t notice any similar complaints about bailing out the big businesses or banks… it happened in the UK too, and it sickens me to think that public money was spent to bail out private interests, but that the bailing out didn’t convert to public benefit - state shares! what do you think?
Then you haven’t been listening. There was an ENORMOUS outcry about these bailouts, and our current leaders had the nerve to endorse the bailouts in one breath and in the next to berate the corporate executives that “forced” them to do it. Tea Party types abhor this abuse of taxpayer money – yet another example of unbridled spending.

Peace,
Dante
 
Mystic Banana
so you’re saying “natural right” theory is the basis of human rights, then?
Yes, that was very clear.
Of course, part of contemporary opposition to natural law is on the basis of it’s religious bias…
Modernity tries to ignore natural moral law and to substitute the concocted “rights” exposed in post #85.
Professor Robert P George (Princeton) in The Clash of Orthodoxies, ISI Books, 2001, thinks that the “heyday of moral relativism is over, even among doctrinaire socialists”, and quotes the “distinguished liberal political philosopher, Joel Feinberg” as warning: “Liberals must beware of relativism – or, at least, of a sweeping relativism – lest they be hoist on their own petard.” (p 18).

Pagans came to this knowledge of the natural moral law: The Roman philosopher Cicero (died 43 B.C.) wrote in De Republica, 3.22: “True law is right reason in agreement with nature. It is of universal application, unchanging, everlasting. We cannot be freed from it by Senate or people. This law is not one thing at Rome and another at Athens, but is eternal and immutable, valid for all nations and for all times. God is the Author of it, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient to it is abandoning his true self and denying his own nature.”

Faithful Catholics believe the Magisterium on affirming the rights of all not to be tortured, not to be raped, to freely practise their faith; the rights of the unborn, frail elderly, the handicapped and of every innocent human being not to be directly killed.

insidecatholic.com/feature/how-john-locke-influenced-catholic-social-teaching.html
*How John Locke Influenced Catholic Social Teaching *, Joe Hargrave, Nov 5, 2010.

“In Locke’s and Leo’s treatment of charity, however, it is also made clear that the right to private property coexists with an obligation to give charitably, and even a right to theft in cases of extreme want. In the short term, this may justify some sort of safety net for the unemployed and those unable to care for themselves. But may we not ask whether or not a free economy would generate a level of wealth and prosperity that would almost entirely eliminate the sort of extreme poverty that would morally justify theft – and whether it has in fact done so in many nations already?

“There are fewer uncharitable assumptions made in politics as often as the accusation that the advocates of freer markets are acting out of selfishness. If market economies based upon the protection of private property and driven by competition and technological innovation tend to reduce the cost of goods and services over time, then surely none will benefit more than the poor.”
 
Mystic Banana
But wouldn’t this resolution against state intervention [in *Rerum Novarum
] also resolve against religious intervention? Including based on Natural law?
Why? We distinguish between State intervention and the primary role of government which is to support families in solidarity, and the role of the Church in subsidiarity, and that’s why laws exist to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, and against monopolies.

It is the Welfare State that is condemned.
From Centesimus Annus , 48, John Paul II, 1991:
“Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State [Welfare State] are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”

Failure to get to know the free enterprise laws discovered and developed by the Catholic Late Scholastics, and what they mean, is at the root of the confusion. People can, and some do, undermine the common good.
 
With all due respect, “Distrubutism” is insanity.

In America, we are free right now to all become practicing capitalists. We are all free to start our own businesses. If you want to be a farmer, plant something on the land you’re now living on. If you want to sell furniture, grab a few tools and start cutting wood. And, so on. So, why aren’t we living the Dream?

Most people lack the drive or ability to become successful on their own. Efficient production often requires large capital investments. The government also gets in the way, but this is mostly because of laws that Distributism supporters would support, like licensing and taxes.

The government also favors big business, which causes it to impede the free market - less government is the solution here. More government would make the problem worse.

Automation, trade with other countries, etc. improves the quality of life of all Americans. There’s no rational thought behind the arguments that if we did away with things that give us more for x-amount of effort that we would have more.
 
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