What do Christians believe about God's Love in this life?

[Sachi]

Hello, I am new to this forum, so I hope I have posted this in the right place.

I am a follower of Zen Buddhism and most Buddhist traditions either deny or are ambivalent towards the concept of an all-powerful Creator. Through some inter-faith dialogues I have been having, I have become interested in exploring this concept further, and I felt that Christianity best exemplifies the idea of ‘God’ out of all the theistic religions; certainly there seems to be great similarity in the focus of Christianity and Buddhism on love and compassion, so I am naturally drawn to it.

I have been invited along to services by Christians from different churches, and the idea that ‘God loves us’ is something I’ve heard repeated a lot. However, when I ask what this means, the answer usually revolves around being saved for eternal life. Without wishing to denigrate that answer, what does ‘God loves us’ mean in this life? The Bible seems to talk about God performing miracles and answering prayers, but I don’t see that happening in the lives of the Christians I’ve spoken with.

Buddhist teachings are focused on reducing our suffering and the suffering of others through our own inward practices. I see that Catholic teaching has a lot to say (much of which I agree with) about ethical and moral issues, but I’m not sure how it helps, for example, the person suffering with depression.

Fundamentally, my question is this: how does God’s love manifest in this life, and what difference does it make in this life? I don’t mean this to be a ‘my religion is better than your religion’ question, because I think the answer is in my own lack of knowledge, and I would appreciate any thoughts anyone could offer.

Peace and happiness to you all.

 

[Wesrock]

There are two ways to approach God’s love in this life (that I’ll write about). I think people get steered wrong when they focus on miracles and the granting of petitions made in prayer.

The first way to approach God is love can be found in natural philosophy, and it’s simply God’s act of creation. I am not here going to go into all of the background that allows us to reach this conclusion, but Catholics believe that things are good insofar as they have being, and in willing the being of things God wills their good. Furthermore, God creates even though it doesn’t add to him. It doesn’t increase his beatitude or his happiness or his joy. It doesn’t boost any type of ego. Creation is selflessly (in the most absolute sense) willing the good of others, of selflessly willing that all things participate in existence, his existence, in some way. Selfless giving of self for the good of others is a root of the idea of love.

Another way God can be understood as love is by looking at the relationship he has established with humankind throughout Christian revelation. Humankind has frequently rejected God, but God calls humankind back to him. He’s made promises to humankind, and he’s followed through on those promises despite our unfaithfulness and failure to keep our own. We are small things in ourselves, small broken and unfaithful people, yet God still calls us back. He became flesh, sending his only Son, to redeem us, and he calls us to, with his help, live truly good lives so that we can truly participate in his goodness. These covenants God has made with humankind, these calls to us, despite our unfaithfulness, as if we’re an unfaithful spouse, his persistence in upholding his end of things despite it only being for our sake and not that it increases his own happiness, when broken down, that can be understood as love, too.

I think there are many other things to be said, too, but I don’t have time to reflect and type them out. I will say that Christianity is an approach to suffering, too. How to deal with the fact that suffering is in the world. How to bear suffering. How it can be made meaningful and constructive. I feel like this aspect gets lost for many, especially with many of the modern comforts we have access to. To be Christian isn’t to get to avoid suffering, though. Just my thoughts.

 

[AlaricB]

Buddhism and and Christianity are both concerned with liberation but in Christianity it’s a liberation from self into a sharing in the divine nature rather than the ending of suffering that Buddhism offers. God is a creator of unlimited love and compassion and Jesus is the one who reveals in human history God’s purpose of unitive love, a love that unites finite lives to the infinity of God.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

On your “depression” point, Catholic teaching regards clinical depression as a medical issue. This is the type of depression that is ongoing, interferes with functioning daily, and often isnt triggered by a specific event. Someone who has it should seek help from a mental health professional. It is not something that can be addressed via religion.

Catholic religion and spirituality can be very helpful in addressing situational depression, such as temporary sadness tied to something going wrong in your life, a breakup, a death etc. We realize that in some cases a person might also need mental health help here too. For example, after a significant death, one might need to see a grief counselor to work through their sadness.

 

[TULIPed]

The love that Christians show for ourselves and others can best be described in the specific Greek word for that type of love - “agape”. Agape love is an active love - it’s a love that says, “You first, me second.” It is sacrificial by nature - it’s a love that puts others needs ahead of our own. It’s a love that prays for, and even stops on the side of the road to help and take care of, our enemies. It’s a love that always accepts back with great joy a wayward son or daughter. It’s a love that has its ultimate expression in God becoming an innocent man and dying on a cross to reconcile a supernatural relationship.

Agape love is all about the here and now. But it’s also all about the eternal. It’s in how we treat our fellow man - and how we perceive and take care of our souls. Ultimately though, it’s all about a man who lived and loved and healed and taught and died and rose again 2,000 years a go. We love him and know him and can’t imagine life without him.

 

[Sachi]

Catholics believe that things are good insofar as they have being, and in willing the being of things God wills their good (snipped to meet post length requirements).

Yes, I think we would agree on the goodness of creation, but we’d see it as a fundamental part of what creation is, rather than reflecting an attribute of a creator. The true nature of humanity and creation is selflessness and compassion, but it gets covered up by other things.

Another way God can be understood as love is by looking at the relationship he has established with humankind throughout Christian revelation …

This is the aspect that I find most difficult - the idea of a personal relationship with God. I understand that God made promises to the people in the Old Testament and that he was pretty active in their lives. That doesn’t seem to be the case in the modern world, though. I’m not sure what God keeping his end of things means (which I suppose ties in to what his love means) other than salvation for the afterlife. How would you say that God helps you to live a good life in a way that, say, an atheist can’t?

Buddhism and and Christianity are both concerned with liberation but in Christianity it’s a liberation from self into a sharing in the divine nature rather than the ending of suffering that Buddhism offers. God is a creator of unlimited love and compassion and Jesus is the one who reveals in human history God’s purpose of unitive love, a love that unites finite lives to the infinity of God.

I would have to think more on this, but I don’t see the two as being that different. Buddhism is also about a liberation from the self into one’s ‘Buddha nature’ - one’s real nature.

On your “depression” point …

A lot of counselling and therapy techniques are rooted in Buddhist teachings, interestingly. Does that mean that some areas of life are outside of God’s power to deal with? How does Catholic teaching help with the situational depression?

The love that Christians show for ourselves and others can best be described in the specific Greek word for that type of love - “agape”. Agape love is an active love - it’s a love that says, “You first, me second.” … Ultimately though, it’s all about a man who lived and loved and healed and taught and died and rose again 2,000 years a go. We love him and know him and can’t imagine life without him.

I think this is also the kind of love that Buddhists would agree with - there is no higher aim than to love and help others, even our enemies. I think that’s a wonderful aim for Christian love, and I wonder how you view God’s love in relation to that? Is God’s love only manifested through other people, or does God act outside of what people do? I hope that makes sense!

Thanks for all your thoughts, I really appreciate you taking the time.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

This is the aspect that I find most difficult - the idea of a personal relationship with God. I understand that God made promises to the people in the Old Testament and that he was pretty active in their lives. That doesn’t seem to be the case in the modern world, though

Many of us here “in the modern world” feel or sense God’s presence in our lives DAILY.
If you don’t have a personal relationship with God yourself, this is not something you can judge from outside. Indeed, you wouldn’t know anything about it.

I don’t think Buddhism can take sole credit for mental health principles. There are areas of general ethics and understanding of human behavior that are common to many religions including Buddhism and Christianity. It’s common sense stuff, and that’s what I see going into mental health practices.

As for how Catholic teaching helps with situational depression, there are several aspects:

1. Personal relationship with God. He can and does help.
2. Realizing the love God has for you, even when you aren’t getting love or support here on earth from humans.
3. Trust in God to take care of things beyond your control - putting matters into His hands.
4. Understanding that through and with God you can accomplish things you could not manage to do on your own.

I could go on and on but I have a meeting and I think you get the idea. It all stems from the personal relationship with God. If you don’t have that or understand that, none of this will make sense.

 

[TULIPed]

Is God’s love only manifested through other people, or does God act outside of what people do? I hope that makes sense!

We Christians have a theological word we use to describe God’s love in action - “incarnation”. Literally - “becoming flesh”. We believe that God literally became flesh and dwelt among us in the person of Jesus because He loved us. We love because God loved us first - He took the first step and reached out to us. We didn’t do anything to deserve his reaching out - on the contrary - he reached and reaches out to us in spite of what we do or don’t do. And for that, we Christians are - or should be - eternally grateful. One of the ways we show our gratitude is by loving others the way he loved us - even our enemies.

 

[TULIPed]

As for how Catholic teaching helps with situational depression, there are several aspects:

1. Personal relationship with God. He can and does help.
2. Realizing the love God has for you, even when you aren’t getting love or support here on earth from humans.
3. Trust in God to take care of things beyond your control - putting matters into His hands.
4. Understanding that through and with God you can accomplish things you could not manage to do on your own.

This right here is solid gold. I need to cut it out and paste it on my car windshield - especially #3.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Probably something on this subject in Pope Benedict XVI’s 2005 encyclical, Deus caritas est (God is love).

 

[Sachi]

Thank you for your thoughts. Once again, I hope this doesn’t come across as critical or confrontational.

I don’t think Buddhism can take sole credit for mental health principles. There are areas of general ethics and understanding of human behavior that are common to many religions including Buddhism and Christianity. It’s common sense stuff, and that’s what I see going into mental health practices.

I didn’t say that Buddhism took the sole claim for modern mental health practices, I just said that a lot of them have a basis in Buddhist/Eastern philosophy, particularly via Jung and other psychotherapists down to various cognitive therapies and mindfulness-based therapies for depression and anxiety. But that’s probably a discussion for another thread

1. Personal relationship with God. He can and does help.
2. Realizing the love God has for you, even when you aren’t getting love or support here on earth from humans.
3. Trust in God to take care of things beyond your control - putting matters into His hands.
4. Understanding that through and with God you can accomplish things you could not manage to do on your own.

If I may:

1 & 4. How does God help? Is it simply a feeling of knowing God is ‘there’ (as in point 2)? I admit that this is where I get stuck; I feel reassurance, for example, that my mother is there for me and loves me but at the same time, I know that if I need help she will do whatever it is in her power to do. However, if God is all-powerful, then I wonder at the evil he allows to be committed in the world, even against his own children. I don’t think that a parent would allow their child to be sick and suffer if i was in their power to stop it, but God does, even when many prayers are poured out. At one of the services I went to, I spoke to a man whose daughter and her husband (also Christians) had just lost their small child, despite the church praying for the child’s recovery for weeks. I find it difficult to reconcile this with the idea of an all-loving and all-powerful God.

We love because God loved us first - He took the first step and reached out to us … One of the ways we show our gratitude is by loving others the way he loved us - even our enemies.

I understand that, but what did he reach out to us in order to do? I have heard people say that Christianity is an ‘escape plan for the next life,’ but most Christians I have spoken to reject the notion that their faith is for the next life alone. I’m not sure that loving one’s enemies is unique to Christianity, so I am wondering what it means to say that we experience God’s love in this life, rather than experiencing the love of other people who are motivated by their love of God.

Probably something on this subject in Pope Benedict XVI’s 2005 encyclical, Deus caritas est (God is love).

Thank you, I’ll read through this.

 

[AlaricB]

would have to think more on this, but I don’t see the two as being that different. Buddhism is also about a liberation from the self into one’s ‘Buddha nature’ - one’s real nature.

A major difference, as I see it, is that Buddhism believes in a mindstream of experience but it does not believe in the concept of a continuing self, or soul, which is the possessor of those experiences. So when you try to make a reasoned argument, for example on this topic, it is the same self that is focusing on and trying to construct the argument rather than it just being the thoughts themselves somehow coming together in a coherent sequence.

 

[Sachi]

Yes, that’s correct. There is some confusion between the Judeo-Christian idea of the ‘soul’ and the idea of ‘consciousness’ in Buddhism, which has led to the idea that reincarnation in Buddhism is a soul jumping from body to body, as it were. We view it as something more like different streams of consciousness that endure past death which, although they are individual in the sense that they can be distinguished from one another, are not individual in the sense that we carry our personality and other traits from one life to the other. As I understand it, the Christian idea of the soul is something much more closely tied to the individual.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We have many, many, MANY threads already on the forum about the “Problem of Evil” and “why does God allow people in the world to suffer” where this topic is addressed in great detail, beyond what I could respond in one post. I would urge you to read some of them as it’s a topic that many bring up and that some Christians struggle with, while others have less struggle with it.

The very short, summarized, doesn’t-even-begin-to-get-at-all-the-aspects-of-this-question response is that

• suffering happens as a result of man’s sin - both original sin (Adam’s fall from grace), and sins that man went on to commit in the world (hate, violence, war, unkindness, failing to recognize and tend to others’ needs, etc. )
• everyone on earth experiences suffering, including God himself when he came to earth in human form and suffered and died for us
• human suffering on earth is part of the human experience, is part of God’s plan even if we don’t understand how, can serve a greater purpose (such as making us more holy, helping others, teaching us lessons), and is very short and momentary compared with our future life after death.

I would urge you to please read some threads about this as it’s probably THE most discussed topic of all time on this forum.

Once again if you have a personal relationship with God you will be in touch with him while you are suffering and trying to understand and work through it all with him. However, many people don’t give God a second thought while all things are going well, but the minute they run up against some suffering they start thinking about him all of a sudden. Sometimes they are able to reach some greater understanding and sometimes it’s just a matter of them blaming God and deciding he must not care about us or doesn’t exist.

The book of Job in the Bible also addresses this issue.

 

[AlaricB]

We view it as something more like different streams of consciousness that endure past death which, although they are individual in the sense that they can be distinguished from one another, are not individual in the sense that we carry our personality and other traits from one life to the other.

But what is it then that distinguishes your stream of consciousness from my stream of consciousness? I would argue that what distinguishes them are that my thoughts are my thoughts and yours are yours. Otherwise there’s no reason why the streams couldn’t get mixed up and you start a thought, for example, and I finish it if thoughts were just out there somewhere in streams.

 

[Sachi]

But what is it then that distinguishes your stream of consciousness from my stream of consciousness? I would argue that what distinguishes them are that my thoughts are my thoughts and yours are yours . Otherwise there’s no reason why the streams couldn’t get mixed up and you start a thought, for example, and I finish it if thoughts were just out there somewhere in streams.

If you’re having thoughts, then your stream of consciousness must be incarnate, so it would be distinguished by its physical form at that point. ‘Thoughts’ are products of the human mental process, they aren’t part of the stream of consciousness, so aren’t able to go out there and get mixed up with the thoughts of others.

When the conciseness is not embodied, it is like a river. All rivers are the same, but also unique. This is how, for example, the newly reincarnated Tibetan Lamas are found and identified.

Buddhism teaches that our thoughts are not us, and that by being able to let go of these thoughts (not to stop thinking, but to stop identifying with them) we have access to pure consciousness, which is our true nature. An example of this would be the person who says that they did something because they were ‘overcome with rage’, or ‘they were not themselves’, or ‘lost control’; this comes from mistaking the illusion that is your thoughts and feelings with yourself, which allows them to control you. Freedom from this is one of the final aims of meditation practice.

 

[AlaricB]

I agree that we are not our thoughts or feelings or out experiences generally. I think that we are the possessor of our experiences. We can’t experience our “possessor” self because we can only be aware of experiences and if we tried to experience our self we would of course be trying to turn our self, our soul, into an experience of some kind. The evidence for a soul has to be more like reasons why you think it makes sense to talk about a soul, such as what makes my experiences belong to me and yours belong to you, as we have been discussing.