M
mattp0625
Guest
John Smyth - 17th century founder
Even the original reformers persecuted the anabaptists, the precursors
Even the original reformers persecuted the anabaptists, the precursors
- Status
C
Cathoholic
Guest
markdperkins.
According to your post, she wants to focus on the justification by faith (alone) issue.
God bless.
Cathoholic
During justification (which is the moment you are born again or born of water and the Spirit).
And after your moment of justification (“let him who is justified, let him be justified further still” as the Book of Revelation instructs us).
Know Galatians 2 and Romans 3 concern works of law (such as circumcision).
Know Ephesians 2:8-9 discuss works apart from grace.
(If you want I can support these things).
Know Catholics likewise assert those works are not salvific.
Know as you are born again (and after), you now have become a “partaker of the Divine nature”.
To whom much is given, much is “required”.
Being given a share in the Divine nature of God, (emphasize this is through the work of Jesus Christ on Calvary) is being “given much”.
Faith has a supernatural dimension and a natural dimension (if you want I can give citations for that too or you can just look it up in the CCC).
Remind her that according to St. Paul (Romans 10), faith comes through hearing the word PREACHED by “men” so it doesn’t make sense that faith is completely devoid of works. After all preaching is a “work” and faith (at least in part) comes through this!
Know at least three or four passages where it talks of the necessity of works.
It is my experience appealing to the Epistle of James is often useless (they constantly get told James means something different than what it says). Therefore your appealing to James just reassures them what their pastor already has told them (“those Catholics don’t have anything to stand on except James . . . and as we can see, those Catholics are wrong about that”).
If you must appeal to James, don’t dwell on James 2. Rather focus on James 5.
**JAMES 5:19-20 ** 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Know three or four verses where St. Paul, talks about works and their role in your salvation and emphasize THOSE verses (this will take out the foundation of what her preacher said about “those Catholics”).
To compensate for her inability to deal with that, she will “birdshot” you with other questions to attempt to refocus the discussion ("What about Mary? What about Purgatory? What about the Pope?, etc. etc.).
Don’t allow that to happen.
When she attempts to birdshot you, remind her SHE wanted to have the discussion on justification.
Tell her to pick one topic (i.e. Purgatory) and you can discuss this the next time.
And oh by the way. Don’t leave the discussion without setting up that “next time” to discuss. If you do neglect this, a follow up discussion usually never occurs.
According to your post, she wants to focus on the justification by faith (alone) issue.
- You need to prepare yourself well on this issue.
- You need to stay on task.
God bless.
Cathoholic
- You need to prepare yourself well on this issue.
During justification (which is the moment you are born again or born of water and the Spirit).
And after your moment of justification (“let him who is justified, let him be justified further still” as the Book of Revelation instructs us).
Know Galatians 2 and Romans 3 concern works of law (such as circumcision).
Know Ephesians 2:8-9 discuss works apart from grace.
(If you want I can support these things).
Know Catholics likewise assert those works are not salvific.
Know as you are born again (and after), you now have become a “partaker of the Divine nature”.
To whom much is given, much is “required”.
Being given a share in the Divine nature of God, (emphasize this is through the work of Jesus Christ on Calvary) is being “given much”.
Faith has a supernatural dimension and a natural dimension (if you want I can give citations for that too or you can just look it up in the CCC).
Remind her that according to St. Paul (Romans 10), faith comes through hearing the word PREACHED by “men” so it doesn’t make sense that faith is completely devoid of works. After all preaching is a “work” and faith (at least in part) comes through this!
Know at least three or four passages where it talks of the necessity of works.
It is my experience appealing to the Epistle of James is often useless (they constantly get told James means something different than what it says). Therefore your appealing to James just reassures them what their pastor already has told them (“those Catholics don’t have anything to stand on except James . . . and as we can see, those Catholics are wrong about that”).
If you must appeal to James, don’t dwell on James 2. Rather focus on James 5.
**JAMES 5:19-20 ** 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Know three or four verses where St. Paul, talks about works and their role in your salvation and emphasize THOSE verses (this will take out the foundation of what her preacher said about “those Catholics”).
- You need to stay on task.
To compensate for her inability to deal with that, she will “birdshot” you with other questions to attempt to refocus the discussion ("What about Mary? What about Purgatory? What about the Pope?, etc. etc.).
Don’t allow that to happen.
When she attempts to birdshot you, remind her SHE wanted to have the discussion on justification.
Tell her to pick one topic (i.e. Purgatory) and you can discuss this the next time.
And oh by the way. Don’t leave the discussion without setting up that “next time” to discuss. If you do neglect this, a follow up discussion usually never occurs.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
markdperkins.
If you need any references for the points I made in the last post, let me know and I will provide them when I am at a computer (right now I am just doing “one finger wonder” on an android device).
Many of the points I brought up have been unpacked at least somewhat already here on this thread by others.
And Church Militant (who has already posted here) has proverbial encyclopedias of good stuff too that is linked to.
But if you have any specifics let me know and I"ll “put em up”. (I might put a few up even if you don’t ask
).
If you need any references for the points I made in the last post, let me know and I will provide them when I am at a computer (right now I am just doing “one finger wonder” on an android device).
Many of the points I brought up have been unpacked at least somewhat already here on this thread by others.
And Church Militant (who has already posted here) has proverbial encyclopedias of good stuff too that is linked to.
But if you have any specifics let me know and I"ll “put em up”. (I might put a few up even if you don’t ask
).- Status