What do Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?

[thunderballs75]

Are there any opinions of the Orthodox Church about the current state of the liturgy and the Novus Ordo Missae used in the Latin Church? Do the Orthodox think the new Mass is better, because of the stronger Epiclesis? Or do they think it is not as good as the Tridentine Mass, because of the current liturgical abuses?

God bless.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I think the general thought is that Orthodox do not think about the Novus Ordo at all…

Among Eastern academics and/or interested parties who are Eastern Orthodox or Catholic, most of us think that Vatican II encouragement for active participation and the vernacular was positive… although the implementation of proper practices are still in flux. The Tridentine Liturgy looks similar to the Eastern liturgies, at least externally, but the participation by the laity is lacking…

Personally, I would have preferred the Tridentine Liturgy in the vernacular as the norm in the Latin Church… although a properly celebrated Novus Ordo is awe-inspiring in its own rite.

 

[Hesychios]

I think the general thought is that Orthodox do not think about the Novus Ordo at all…

I agree.

One would have to have been exposed to it to have an opinion. Most Orthodox would not have had much reason to, except in western countries when going for social reasons (attending a wedding for example).

Although certainly not the majority of Orthodox, some are converts and might have had much more of an opportunity to experience the Novus Ordo Missae (which I think might no longer be the accepted label, as it is normative). These people may have strong opinions, but they will not represent the typical Orthodox perspective, which I think is as you state.

There should be Orthodox liturgical scholars who may have insights or opinions on the subject, but I have not been reading them.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Speaking personally, I find the Ordinary Form rather bland.

Generally, even in many of the parishes with the fewest abuses, the OF is not sung, but hymns are merely added to a recited Mass–something totally unknown in Orthodoxy.

I think that what the Western Fathers of Vatican II were trying to accomplish is can be experienced at the typical Melkite or Byzantine Catholic church, with the Congregation SINGING responses to a SUNG Liturgy.

 

[thunderballs75]

Yeah, I did notice that in the Orthodox liturgy that lay participation is more emphasized than the Tridentine Mass. What about the Tridentine Mass done as a so-called “dialogue Mass”? Also, do the Western Rite Orthodox use the NO Missae?

 

[Religio71]

I’m Roman Catholic, and I love the Eastern Divine Liturgy. SO much better. And even then, I prefer it over the Tridentine Mass as well. Missa Canata and solemn high Mass are nice, but the Divine Liturgy is just…better in my opinion. Low Tridentine bores me (as far as the externals, but not the ultimate point of worship of course ).

More incense and candles please!

 

[Religio71]

Yeah, I did notice that in the Orthodox liturgy that lay participation is more emphasized than the Tridentine Mass. What about the Tridentine Mass done as a so-called “dialogue Mass”? Also, do the Western Rite Orthodox use the NO Missae?

No, Western Rite Orthodox have their own Liturgies that have typically adapted existing liturgies. One liturgy modifies the Anglican liturgy, and another modifies the Tridentine Mass, including adding a Byzantine epiclesis.

The NO is not used at all.

 

[AdrianP]

I think in Orthodox Church we use the Holy Liturgy of Saint John Crysostom mostly that is written in around 380. It is very close with first Liturgies like the Holy Liturgy of Apostle Mark and the Holy Liturgy of St James, named by Bible brother of Jesus. What the 3 Liturgies have in common is prayer for the living and dead that priest receives from people , taking particles. Many miracles ahow that 40 Liturgies for the dead escaped souls from hell.
In the end, The Holy Liturgy should please God and should help as many souls as possible.

God and angels are present at the time of Orthodox Holy Liturgy, actually a Liturgy of Primary Church.

From the teachings of Father Cleopas
These are historical documents proving miracles done through mentioning living and dead at 40 Holy Liturgies.It’s an automatical translation from Romanian to English.
translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ro&u=http://bisericasecreta.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/puterea-celor-40-de-liturghii-si-parastase/&ei=xaKcSonPLoextgeV3aW7BA&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D40%2Bliturghii%2BCleopa%26hl%3Den

 

[SyroMalankara]

No, Western Rite Orthodox have their own Liturgies that have typically adapted existing liturgies. One liturgy modifies the Anglican liturgy, and another modifies the Tridentine Mass, including adding a Byzantine epiclesis.

The NO is not used at all.

I’ve read from other posters that this may not be the case universally. Some Western Orthodox have been celebrating a “Novus Ordo”-type liturgy, facing the people, etc. in certain Asian countries. I am not sure that this is accepted - or even known - by all of Orthodoxy - the legitimacy remains to be seen, but apparently it is being done.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I’ve read from other posters that this may not be the case universally. Some Western Orthodox have been celebrating a “Novus Ordo”-type liturgy, facing the people, etc. in certain Asian countries. I am not sure that this is accepted - or even known - by all of Orthodoxy - the legitimacy remains to be seen, but apparently it is being done.

I’ve never heard that. Do you have any references?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Nine_Two]

There are Western Orthodox churches in Asia? I thought they were pretty much limited to the United States.

 

[Judefrancis]

Generally, I think that the Orthodox do not really favor the Novus Ordo Mass. For one thing, the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox Divine Liturgy is much more ceremonial than the Novus Ordo. There are all these lay people in and around the altar during the Novus Ordo Mass. Eucharistic Ministers handling communion, lackluster liturgical music like “On Eagles Wings” and other Protestant-style hymns. The typical Novus Ordo Mass really does have a slight Protestant flavor. It is rare that incense is used, for instance. Incense is a big Eastern Catholic/Orthodox tradition but for some reason in the Roman Novus Ordo incense is rarely used in most parishes. Those lay people around the altar in the Novus Ordo, were they officially a part of an Orthodox Mass, would be wearing some sort of vestment. The Pope now wants a “reform of the reform” when hopefully the Mass will be returned to its ceremonial status. Most Orthodox I know also lament the design of post Vatican II Catholic churches–the lack of high altars, the presence of bare white walls rather than traditional iconography, the elimination of altar rails, etc. One has only to check out the new Los Angeles Catholic cathedral, Our Lady of the Angels, to see how so much of modern (western) Catholic architecture has fallen from grace. This cathedral looks like a convention hall. It could be a Lutheran church, a low church Anglican church, or even a Methodist church. With the Orthodox, you always know an Orthodox church. There is no second guessing.

 

[Harpazo]

There are Western Orthodox churches in Asia? I thought they were pretty much limited to the United States.

I think there may be some in the Philippines. But they were severely reprimanded by their hierarch, if I remember correctly.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[wisdomseeker]

Are there any opinions of the Orthodox Church about the current state of the liturgy and the Novus Ordo Missae used in the Latin Church? Do the Orthodox think the new Mass is better, because of the stronger Epiclesis? Or do they think it is not as good as the Tridentine Mass, because of the current liturgical abuses?

God bless.

i heard a man on EWTN the other day and he said that the deplorable Liturgy of the CC is one of the main obstacle to union with the EO.

 

[Harpazo]

Are there any opinions of the Orthodox Church about the current state of the liturgy and the Novus Ordo Missae used in the Latin Church? Do the Orthodox think the new Mass is better, because of the stronger Epiclesis? Or do they think it is not as good as the Tridentine Mass, because of the current liturgical abuses?

God bless.

Please bear in mind that this is one sinner’s opinion and I mean no offense whatsoever. I became Catholic almost 4 years ago. A year ago I began investigating Orthodoxy. What I saw in many NO parishes was not what it was supposed to be, this I know. But, when I converted I thought that was what the Catholic Church was. I became extremely dismayed when I realized there was more of a rich liturgical tradition than what was in front of me when I went to Mass. I longed to be able to attend a reverent liturgy where the theology was incorporated into it. I basically felt like a Protestant with some Sacraments thrown in for good measure when I worshiped with the Latins.

I started to investigate Eastern Christianity by way of the Maronites. They were a lovely group of people and were not at all surprised when I told them I was becoming Orthodox. In Orthodoxy, I found that they have preserved the Apostolic Faith better than Rome had and never underwent a Reformation. I could not imagine a martyr from the early Church visiting a NO parish and recognizing what was going on. They would have been horrified.

I believe, IMO, that the NO is a travesty. It was a good idea on the surface, but was not well thought out. The best thing to do would have been to not fool with the liturgy at all. If the Bishops at Vatican II wouldn’t have gotten (name removed by moderator)ut from Protestants for their new liturgy, there would not be the mess that we see now in the post-V2 Catholic Church. Even a translation of the liturgy into the vernacular would have been good! After all, didn’t Pope John VIII allow for the Slavs to have a liturgy in their tongue? Why couldn’t the Gregorian Mass be celebrated in the vernacular?

In some respects, I think it has done some good with the stronger epiclesis and lay participation in the Mass (by means of responses, not altar girls, EMHCs and Protestant “praise and worship”). There is a lot of rich liturgical heritage in the West before Vatican II and Latins would do well to return to it. I’m really surprised there have not been more schisms in the post-V2 Catholic Church because of the liturgical abrogations. It’s obvious that the people saw the Liturgy as instructive for them, else they would not have been so confused and left in such huge numbers.

Perhaps people will now understand why the Orthodox emphasize the importance and role of Tradition in the Church. It is so things like this will not happen.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Harpazo]

Generally, I think that the Orthodox do not really favor the Novus Ordo Mass. For one thing, the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox Divine Liturgy is much more ceremonial than the Novus Ordo. There are all these lay people in and around the altar during the Novus Ordo Mass. Eucharistic Ministers handling communion, lackluster liturgical music like “On Eagles Wings” and other Protestant-style hymns. The typical Novus Ordo Mass really does have a slight Protestant flavor. It is rare that incense is used, for instance. Incense is a big Eastern Catholic/Orthodox tradition but for some reason in the Roman Novus Ordo incense is rarely used in most parishes. Those lay people around the altar in the Novus Ordo, were they officially a part of an Orthodox Mass, would be wearing some sort of vestment. The Pope now wants a “reform of the reform” when hopefully the Mass will be returned to its ceremonial status. Most Orthodox I know also lament the design of post Vatican II Catholic churches–the lack of high altars, the presence of bare white walls rather than traditional iconography, the elimination of altar rails, etc. One has only to check out the new Los Angeles Catholic cathedral, Our Lady of the Angels, to see how so much of modern (western) Catholic architecture has fallen from grace. This cathedral looks like a convention hall. It could be a Lutheran church, a low church Anglican church, or even a Methodist church. With the Orthodox, you always know an Orthodox church. There is no second guessing.

My old Methodist church has altar rails and beautiful stained glass and they do not believe in the real presence (even if their denomination subscribes to it)!

In Christ,
ANdrew