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veritas8284
Guest
What do we as Catholics say to this?!?
1 Timothy, Chapter 4…
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20tim%204&version=31
1 Timothy, Chapter 4…
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20tim%204&version=31
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M
MarcoPolo
Guest
Which part? All of it? We say it is part of Sacred Scripture that the Church has preserved throughout the centuries!
J
jaz1976
Guest
two very important points…first of all, Paul is describing gnostics here. There were already some wierd sects popping up at this time. He is not talking about the Catholic Church because we also know that Paul did not have a wife and felt this as benificial to his ministry.
second point, the Catholic Church does not prohibit anyone from marrying. If a man chooses to follow God’s call to him by becomming a priest, HE CHOOSES not to mary.
second point, the Catholic Church does not prohibit anyone from marrying. If a man chooses to follow God’s call to him by becomming a priest, HE CHOOSES not to mary.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, we say, context.
First, no Catholics forbid other Catholics to marry, do they? A Catholic priest, for example, is not ‘forbidden’ to marry. He freely chooses NOT to marry at this time. There are certain circumstances where a man who ‘is’ married and converts to Catholicism may become a priest, as well. Further, there were times ‘in the past’ where the priest-to-be could choose TO marry, and there may be times in the future where he can again. But I repeat, at no time, then or now, is a priest FORBIDDEN to marry, but that he freely chooses NOT to marry. . .and those are two entirely different things.
Now, a Catholic may be forbidden to marry a person who is already married to somebody else, because Catholics do not recognize divorce (and neither did Jesus, but that’s another thread).
As far as ‘forbidding foods’, perhaps this ‘group’, not being versed in history, is not aware that at the time the particular letter to Timothy was being written, there were many groups which taught various heresies. One of those groups taught that ‘all matter’ was evil and only spirit was ‘good’. Other groups attempted to keep the various Jewish dietary laws (which as St. Peter noted were no longer in force for Christians) and thus ‘forbade’ certain foods. Further, in the pagan lands, various foods were set aside for idols and their worship. St. Peter addresses this in Scripture when he tells us that one should refrain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood and from meat which has been ‘strangled’.
Further still, St. Paul tells us
In Scripture, Christ tells us, “When the Bridegroom is taken away, the disciples will fast”.
And so we do.
First, no Catholics forbid other Catholics to marry, do they? A Catholic priest, for example, is not ‘forbidden’ to marry. He freely chooses NOT to marry at this time. There are certain circumstances where a man who ‘is’ married and converts to Catholicism may become a priest, as well. Further, there were times ‘in the past’ where the priest-to-be could choose TO marry, and there may be times in the future where he can again. But I repeat, at no time, then or now, is a priest FORBIDDEN to marry, but that he freely chooses NOT to marry. . .and those are two entirely different things.
Now, a Catholic may be forbidden to marry a person who is already married to somebody else, because Catholics do not recognize divorce (and neither did Jesus, but that’s another thread).
As far as ‘forbidding foods’, perhaps this ‘group’, not being versed in history, is not aware that at the time the particular letter to Timothy was being written, there were many groups which taught various heresies. One of those groups taught that ‘all matter’ was evil and only spirit was ‘good’. Other groups attempted to keep the various Jewish dietary laws (which as St. Peter noted were no longer in force for Christians) and thus ‘forbade’ certain foods. Further, in the pagan lands, various foods were set aside for idols and their worship. St. Peter addresses this in Scripture when he tells us that one should refrain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood and from meat which has been ‘strangled’.
Further still, St. Paul tells us
And one must also note that the Jewish culture had many, many traditions which involved either fasting (refraining from all food or limiting oneself to one meal), abstinence (refraining from some particular food, such as the PASSOVER when LEAVENED BREAD MAY NOT BE EATEN), or both.
In Scripture, Christ tells us, “When the Bridegroom is taken away, the disciples will fast”.
And so we do.
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veritas8284
Guest
That all makes complete sense! Thanks to all who replied.
In case I wasn’t clear to begin with… I am Catholic. VERY proud to be Catholic at that. I was just posed with this question and honestly didn’t know how to answer.
Especially the part about “forbidding foods” because pre Vatican II, eating meat on Fridays of Lent would get you a one-way ticket to hell… or so it was taught.
Thanks again!
In case I wasn’t clear to begin with… I am Catholic. VERY proud to be Catholic at that. I was just posed with this question and honestly didn’t know how to answer.
Especially the part about “forbidding foods” because pre Vatican II, eating meat on Fridays of Lent would get you a one-way ticket to hell… or so it was taught.
Thanks again!
G
Genesis315
Guest
That’s still the case. While the discipline of fasting from meat on Lenten Fridays is not one that is irreformable, it still remains in full force and binds gravely.
In fact, every Fridays is still to be a day of penance (but we are given more liberality in choosing a specific penance, rather than being required to abstain from meat as the penance).
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veritas8284
Guest
I agree that a penance and fasting serves its purpose and are both wonderful things… but a forced abstainence of meat or damning to hell… I think the Church might be overstepping her authority a little there. 
I know fasts are pleasing to God, but you can’t tell me He will send me to hell if I choose not to participate in the no-meat rule.
I know fasts are pleasing to God, but you can’t tell me He will send me to hell if I choose not to participate in the no-meat rule.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Let’s clarify. It is not the ‘forced’ abstinence from meat that would send one to hell. . .it would be the DELIBERATE DISOBEDIENCE in refusing to follow a practice the Church required.
Never, never, never was a person ‘damned to hell’ for ‘eating meat on Friday’. . .but a person could freely damn himself for choosing to DISOBEY the teachings of his church.
You see, in order to truly commit mortal sin the person had to be fully convinced that disobedience to the Church’s custom and discipline (a teaching which can be changed but has moral force in that it is required of us and is not antithetical to the moral law–and fasting and abstinence have ALWAYS been required in religious worship, not just in Christian worship) by eating meat on Sunday was a grave thing, a serious thing. He would also have to fully know that he was wrong in doing it, but do it anyway. And he would have to fully consent to it. That would be ‘mortal’ sin.
Far more common is the case of the person who, while he knew it was ‘against the rules’ either felt that it wasn’t really ‘all that bad’, didn’t think it was really ‘such a big deal’, only had a ‘little bit’ accidentally and then figured, ‘in for a penny, in for a pound’, didn’t even really bother to think about it, etc. For them. . .not a full mortal sin but a venial sin. Serious. . .but they lacked full culpability because they really did not truly know how grave DISOBEDIENCE is, did not really put their full ‘attention’ to it, etc.
I repeat, the Church “did not change”. She didn’t at one point in 1965 'DAMN PEOPLE TO HELL WHO ATE MEAT ON FRIDAY" and then the next Friday, ‘change her mind’ and ‘undamn’ them, or decide eating meat was no big deal, etc.
What the U.S. bishops did was to ask for an INDULT to allow the people to CHOOSE their Friday penance.
It may interest you to know that the NORM for ALL Catholics is to abstain from meat on every Friday. . .as has been the case for centuries. In the U.S. (and some other countries) the bishops have received permission to allow Catholics here to ‘choose’ their non Lenten Friday penance (Fridays in Lent are STILL abstinence), with the strong encouragement to, if not ‘keep’ the Friday abstinence year round, to choose something meaningful and PENITENTIAL.
Never, never, never was a person ‘damned to hell’ for ‘eating meat on Friday’. . .but a person could freely damn himself for choosing to DISOBEY the teachings of his church.
You see, in order to truly commit mortal sin the person had to be fully convinced that disobedience to the Church’s custom and discipline (a teaching which can be changed but has moral force in that it is required of us and is not antithetical to the moral law–and fasting and abstinence have ALWAYS been required in religious worship, not just in Christian worship) by eating meat on Sunday was a grave thing, a serious thing. He would also have to fully know that he was wrong in doing it, but do it anyway. And he would have to fully consent to it. That would be ‘mortal’ sin.
Far more common is the case of the person who, while he knew it was ‘against the rules’ either felt that it wasn’t really ‘all that bad’, didn’t think it was really ‘such a big deal’, only had a ‘little bit’ accidentally and then figured, ‘in for a penny, in for a pound’, didn’t even really bother to think about it, etc. For them. . .not a full mortal sin but a venial sin. Serious. . .but they lacked full culpability because they really did not truly know how grave DISOBEDIENCE is, did not really put their full ‘attention’ to it, etc.
I repeat, the Church “did not change”. She didn’t at one point in 1965 'DAMN PEOPLE TO HELL WHO ATE MEAT ON FRIDAY" and then the next Friday, ‘change her mind’ and ‘undamn’ them, or decide eating meat was no big deal, etc.
What the U.S. bishops did was to ask for an INDULT to allow the people to CHOOSE their Friday penance.
It may interest you to know that the NORM for ALL Catholics is to abstain from meat on every Friday. . .as has been the case for centuries. In the U.S. (and some other countries) the bishops have received permission to allow Catholics here to ‘choose’ their non Lenten Friday penance (Fridays in Lent are STILL abstinence), with the strong encouragement to, if not ‘keep’ the Friday abstinence year round, to choose something meaningful and PENITENTIAL.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
And veritas. . .God is NEVER the one who ‘sends you to hell’. If you go to hell (may God grant you never do), the one who will send you there is . . .you.
Remember, obedience to authority is a HUGE stumbling block for many. They will say, “Don’t tell ME that I ‘have to’ do this or that. God will not punish ME if I don’t. You don’t have authority to make me do X or Y, etc.”
I certainly do not have the authority to tell you to abstain on a nonLenten Friday. But the Church does have the authority to tell you that the NORM for all Catholics is Friday abstinence, and that you as a U.S. Catholic are prayerfully encouraged to choose either abstinence or some other penitential practice.
And by heaven, when it comes to Lenten Fridays, you are BOUND by the laws of the Church. So if you ‘choose’ not to participate in the ‘no meat’ rule then. . .knowing that this is a discipline which the Church requires of its members; the requirements are available on many websites, the guidelines are given out at every parish every Lent. . .you can ‘believe’ God will not punish you, but I don’t know how you think you will justify your disobedience to Him --and it is disobedience to Him when it is disobedience to the Church.
Remember, obedience to authority is a HUGE stumbling block for many. They will say, “Don’t tell ME that I ‘have to’ do this or that. God will not punish ME if I don’t. You don’t have authority to make me do X or Y, etc.”
I certainly do not have the authority to tell you to abstain on a nonLenten Friday. But the Church does have the authority to tell you that the NORM for all Catholics is Friday abstinence, and that you as a U.S. Catholic are prayerfully encouraged to choose either abstinence or some other penitential practice.
And by heaven, when it comes to Lenten Fridays, you are BOUND by the laws of the Church. So if you ‘choose’ not to participate in the ‘no meat’ rule then. . .knowing that this is a discipline which the Church requires of its members; the requirements are available on many websites, the guidelines are given out at every parish every Lent. . .you can ‘believe’ God will not punish you, but I don’t know how you think you will justify your disobedience to Him --and it is disobedience to Him when it is disobedience to the Church.
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