What do you do when

[Edward_H]

The question was “what do you do when…”

We tried to answer. Our answers weren’t helpful. People far smarter and humbler and more well read and long-suffering than Dawkins and Hitchens have wrestled with far tougher questions and in a far more interconnected/methodical/interconnected pursuit than this (read Summa Theologica with a fresh pot of coffee over a year or so), and have come to different conclusions, at both the intellectual level and at the level of “doing”.

I recommend we let NotReligious spend more effort and more time reading the the actual writings that have come from such wrestling than what we can possibly do in superficial forums like this. I wish him/her all the best in the pursuit of answers to these sorts of questions, in the pursuit of a comprehensive truth that will help him/her.

I personally have found it more helpful to those around me and to my own miserable self to instead wrestle with understanding love and its everyday application (this next minute or this next hour), and with struggling against my own weaknesses and in sometimes my own hesitations in just identifying and facing up to my weaknesses. I have so far to go, but it’s been a more joyful and sporting pursuit.

In my own case, I’ve concluded more enduring good seems to come out of such a pursuit of love than in the more academic/semantic (at a loss for the right word here) pursuit of the understanding of an existence of God or a non-existence of God. Were I to ever travel the same road as a real thinker, I think I’d still be left with the question of “it’s Monday morning…and now what do I do for my wife, my children, my neighbor, my employer?”

This is only my experience, but looking at love as “choices of action embedded in free will and personal limitations and weakneses” seems to have revealed more enduring practical truth and insight than intellectual speculation and pseudo debate in well meaning places like these forums.

This reminds me of a GK Chesteron quote: "…y experts in poverty I do not mean sociologists, but poor men."

 

[jmcrae]

Yeah, but I didn’t literally mean “getting something”, I meant, that something at all would change. And once again, how could I love someone I don’t believe in?

Why were you expecting something to change? (Isn’t that the same as “getting” something?)

Mother Teresa didn’t feel anything, or see anything change, yet she kept her faith. This is the kind of faith that gets you to Heaven.

Obviously, consolations are nice, and it’s wonderful when God chooses to reveal Himself to you - but we need to understand that these things are “extra” - God is not required to give us these things in return for our faith.

Ok…so how does this love in any way proof gods existence? And if this was never intended to be proof for god, then…what does this information have to do with anything?

You never asked for proof of God’s existence. You asked how to remain faithful, even without any proof. That’s what I was trying to give you.

 

[raindr0ps]

I’m not sure if the problem is so much that I don’t want to go to mass, adoration, etc. Especially while away at school, these things are almost to convenient to pass up. The problem is more that when I’m at mass, adoration, etc, I don’t want to participate. Or I don’t feel like it. One of those.

Edward H–I think you’re right. I need to get over myself, love more, and attend mass/adoration/etc simply to be with God, not so that He can be with me. Gosh, it’s so easier said than done.

But then, I tell myself that it’s enough that I’m stopping by the chapel before I head off to my first class, or that simply sitting in daily mass and getting my ticket punched will suffice. I definatley don’t have good enough reasons to stop attending mass, adoration, dropping in the chapel, etc, but at the same time I would rather die an honest agnostic than a hypocritical catholic. I’m catholic enough on the outside, but my heart doesn’t believe. I don’t know how to make myself believe.

I’m not sure if I’m looking for a reason to stay or a reason to go. For now Catholicism is familiar and convenient. It’s so much a part of my life that stepping aside would be harder than staying. But I’m not sure that’s honest. It’s hard to be honest when you can never really know these things for certain.

That question keeps creeping into the back of my mind: “What if it isn’t real…?” Right now, I’m either wasting my time by halfheartedly working towards the only thing that really matters, or I’m wasting my time by giving myself into something false. Either it’s everything or nothing, but I feel trapped in the middle.

Anywho, enough with that. Thank-you all for taking the time to reply! Seeing that I’m not the only one and seeing your perseverance helps. A lot. Sometimes I think that the most convincing proof for God, at least for me, is simply a person who believes. So thanks.

 

[raindr0ps]

P.S. I think people may be getting NotReligous and I confused. Just to clarify, we are definatley two different people. I started this thread, and he’s been debating with various people throughout.

Peace.

 

[Edward_H]

I

Edward H–I think you’re right. I need to get over myself, love more, and attend mass/adoration/etc simply to be with God, not so that He can be with me. Gosh, it’s so easier said than done.

But then, I tell myself that it’s enough that I’m stopping by the chapel before I head off to my first class, or that simply sitting in daily mass and getting my ticket punched will suffice. I definatley don’t have good enough reasons to stop attending mass, adoration, dropping in the chapel, etc, but at the same time I would rather die an honest agnostic than a hypocritical catholic. I’m catholic enough on the outside, but my heart doesn’t believe. I don’t know how to make myself believe.

I’m not sure if I’m looking for a reason to stay or a reason to go. For now Catholicism is familiar and convenient. It’s so much a part of my life that stepping aside would be harder than staying. But I’m not sure that’s honest. It’s hard to be honest when you can never really know these things for certain.

I recommend you tell God this conundrum very specifically. “Lord, I am not sure why I am here…why I am visiting you…I want to adore you. Deepen my adoration for all that you’ve done and are doing for me. I’m half-stepping toward you…this is pathetic…and I know that’s not what you deserve. Sharpen my love…give me some small work to do for you today,just little things right now because I am just shuffling and half-stepping right now. But give me something useful/helpful to do for others, and the grace to do it well for you. Don’t leave me alone or throw me in the deep end. Strengthen my faith:”

Have a Fatherly conversation with Him, and add a big dose of your humor, your personality into your prayer, your conversation with Him. Tell Him “Let me tell you how big a hero I was today stopping by the Tabernacle or smiling at that lonely looking employee/student…I’m making small progress, for you, with you…and I want you in the middle of my day more and more every day, and to help others, especially in little ways”.

Just a thought, a proposal of sorts.

 

[TheQuestioner]

But then, I tell myself that it’s enough that I’m stopping by the chapel before I head off to my first class, or that simply sitting in daily mass and getting my ticket punched will suffice. I definatley don’t have good enough reasons to stop attending mass, adoration, dropping in the chapel, etc, but at the same time I would rather die an honest agnostic than a hypocritical catholic. I’m catholic enough on the outside, but my heart doesn’t believe. I don’t know how to make myself believe.

You have faith. You do not know whether God exists or not but you conduct yourself in a manner as though it is all true. God does not look with contempt in this, but with joy. God is pleased when someone who has every reason not to follow Him does so anyway. What you need to ask for now is conviction. Pray to God and ask Him to give you conviction in your faith.

That question keeps creeping into the back of my mind: “What if it isn’t real…?” Right now, I’m either wasting my time by halfheartedly working towards the only thing that really matters, or I’m wasting my time by giving myself into something false. Either it’s everything or nothing, but I feel trapped in the middle.

Then waste your time being brave for God. God asks for everything, but that doesn’t mean He’ll take everything. He doesn’t ask you give this or that much faith and devotion, but that you give Him as much as you possibly can, and He will work with it and make it blossom.

 

[DexUK]

You’re certainly not alone in your feelings.

Consider St Thomas - he who doubted that Jesus had risen from the dead until he could physically touch His wounds. “Blessed are those who believe and yet have not seen.”

Perhaps you need to go back to first principles?

Really take the time to examine the Christian faith. Look at all the evidence for God (which you can see with your own eyes and deduce from your human reason). Look then at the movement of God throughout our history, as it is recorded. Look at the prophecies that foretold the coming of Someone who would utterly change everything. Look at the accounts of Jesus’ life and the miracles that He performed. Look at the manner of His death and the reason WHY he died. Look at why He, in His truly divine state allowed Himself to be put to death. See how the symbolism of that event would have been perceived by the Jews in relation to their scripture and the prophesies. Look at the wonder that has sprung from this, in the form of the Church, the way in which we live our lives, the thanks that we give to Him.

You may think you know these things, and you may well have been taught them, but you may only understand it in a ‘mechanical’ way rather than taking it to heart.

I am sorry you feel so disconnected from it. This is something that can take root, live and bloom in your heart if you let it, and it seems that the ground that seed needs to fall into is ready to receive it. We just need to find a way to get the seed there properly.

I really do reiterate my advice: find a spiritual guide. Someone who is more than just a teacher in the historian sense. Someone who can really illustrate the spiritual for you.

God bless.

 

[Edward_H]

TheQuestioner:

*“Then waste your time being brave for God. God asks for everything, but that doesn’t mean He’ll take everything. He doesn’t ask you give this or that much faith and devotion, but that you give Him as much as you possibly can, and He will work with it and make it blossom.”
*

 

[NotReligous]

Why were you expecting something to change? (Isn’t that the same as “getting” something?)

I wasn’t expecting anything, I just said that it didn’t change anything…

Mother Teresa didn’t feel anything, or see anything change, yet she kept her faith. This is the kind of faith that gets you to Heaven.

Well, unfortunately I can’t believe something (at least as huge as god) with out proof.

You never asked for proof of God’s existence. You asked how to remain faithful, even without any proof. That’s what I was trying to give you.

Could you quote me saying that? Because I never, ever said that I could believe in god with out proof. I might have asked; “How am I supposed to believe with out proof?” But that just is another way of saying; “I can’t believe with out proof.” I didn’t actually mean for you to reply how I could believe with out proof, for I can’t believe with out it.

Why? Let me put it this way; What would it take for you to believe in fairies? Just reply, don’t go around the question.

(In short; I was born with a very skeptical mind)

EDIT; Do you mean this; “If you find the answer, share it with me.” Because then you missed the meaning of that text…

 

[fhansen]

Why? Let me put it this way; What would it take for you to believe in fairies? Just reply, don’t go around the question.

For myself, I’d have to see one-or at least see strong evidence for their existence-fairy dust laying around, etc…

 

[Edward_H]

I wasn’t expecting anything, I just said that it didn’t change anything…

Well, unfortunately I can’t believe something (at least as huge as god) with out proof.

Could you quote me saying that? Because I never, ever said that I could believe in god with out proof. I might have asked; “How am I supposed to believe with out proof?” But that just is another way of saying; “I can’t believe with out proof.” I didn’t actually mean for you to reply how I could believe with out proof, for I can’t believe with out it.

Why? Let me put it this way; What would it take for you to believe in fairies? Just reply, don’t go around the question.

(In short; I was born with a very skeptical mind)

EDIT; Do you mean this; “If you find the answer, share it with me.” Because then you missed the meaning of that text…

Well just to jump into this one:

• It’s a fact that you believe and act on many many things without proof, all the time
• apparently you’re not as skeptical as you think you are. We rely on a faith of sorts just to live in our world.
• you said it didn’t change anything, but to be precise it didn’t lead to anything that you’ve yet noticed that has changed. Your powers of awareness don’t limit or importantly define reality.

It’s quite possible that God saved a life on other side of the world based on your small act of experimental faith. Or He allowed some set of arrangements to occur the result which may one day be visually evident or not, now or at some future point, but it’s simply beyond your and my limited powers of sensation and observation.

I try to use the gifts that God has given me, but I can’t be attached to them. I need to be willing to give up everything, even my treasured intelligence, in order follow Him. This can be a great act of heroism on our part…may seem ludicrous…but we need to be willing to give up everything for Him.

All of this is quite possible.

There are limits to your (and my) skepticism and your methods of observation. Methods of observation of the material world aren’t perhaps fit, mature enough, and may never be in the realm of observing the immaterial world.

You’re a bright person and you can entertain that all this might be quite true.

Just because I don’t see, don’t sense, can’t measure something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and isn’t real.

 

[jmcrae]

Why? Let me put it this way; What would it take for you to believe in fairies? Just reply, don’t go around the question.

It would take knowing someone who takes their existence seriously, and knowing of scholarly works having been written by serious people regarding their habits, living arrangements, etc.

(All of which exists for Christianity, especially Catholicism.)

 

[NotReligous]

It would take knowing someone who takes their existence seriously, and knowing of scholarly works having been written by serious people regarding their habits, living arrangements, etc.

Well, first of all there are people who take their existence seriously. People believe in all kind of crazy stuff. Here are better examples; UFOs, Ghosts, The Monster of Loch ness…etc. These are all taken seriously, and people do study them. So why do you accept go, but ignore these? What is the difference in your faith?

(All of which exists for Christianity, especially Catholicism.)

Wait, this; “and knowing of scholarly works having been written by serious people regarding their habits, living arrangements, etc” exists in Christianity? How so? (or anything similar?)

 

[NotReligous]

For myself, I’d have to see one-or at least see strong evidence for their existence-fairy dust laying around, etc…

Why don’t you demand that for god then? (assuming you are a believer) And if you say; “I do”, then please state the things that you think are ‘strong evidence’ for god.

 

[fhansen]

Why don’t you demand that for god then? (assuming you are a believer) And if you say; “I do”, then please state the things that you think are ‘strong evidence’ for god.

The universe itself, with it’s apparent orderly design, cries out in testimony to the handiwork of a designer. We just don’t want to see it.

 

[NotReligous]

The universe itself, with it’s apparent orderly design, cries out in testimony to the handiwork of a designer. We just don’t want to see it.

The universe does not seem to be designed…it is 99.99% inhabitable for starters, and the formation of life can be explained with out a supernatural being. There is nothing about the universe that suggests a supernatural being created it. The only things that I keep hearing are; “Well the universe exists!” and “We exist!”

… Our existence can be explain, the universes currently can’t. But why do you assume that god did it?

I think I put it really well before, let me quote;

"You say that god created it. (universe) But you don’t have any proof that god actually created it. You say it is because we don’t know anything that could have created the universe, so it must have been god. Well…no. You only assume god created the universe. As long as you have no proof, of the specific thing that created the universe, your ‘god’ does not mean anything.

Let me explain. Scientists don’t know what created the universe. They only say; “Something created it.” You say that that something is ‘god’. But as long as you don’t define your god, and give proof why it must be that particular god, you are also saying; “something created it.” Why? Because god can mean so many different things. I can say my socks are god! God can be defined as anything, therefore it does translate to; ‘something created it’.

In short; As long as you don’t define your god, and give proof to this definition, I could as well say that fairies created the universe. (they both have equal amount of proof) Both were also discovered by man about the same time. (I think invented)

And also, not knowing something, does not give an excuse to say; “Well, we don’t know what did it, so…god must have done it…yes!” This is how religion began to exist…to explain things that seemed supernatural. (stars, fire, etc.) "

You are free to reply.

Note; This text also asks the question; “How do you know that you believe in the correct god?”

 

[fhansen]

The universe does not seem to be designed…it is 99.99% inhabitable for starters, and the formation of life can be explained with out a supernatural being. There is nothing about the universe that suggests a supernatural being created it. The only things that I keep hearing are; “Well the universe exists!” and “We exist!”

… Our existence can be explain, the universes currently can’t. But why do you assume that god did it?

The universe does “seem to be designed”. To say the universe “just is”, to call it “brute fact”, begs the question of how it got here. Percentage of habitable real estate has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a creator was involved in its existence.

And we can’t explain how we got here either. There’s no theory that satisfies the question of how-let alone why- inanimate matter became animate matter. DNA necessarily exists in the simplest living organisms and the probability of its springing into existence randomly is so unlikely as to be a laughable notion. The arguments supporting life evolving from non-life generally lapse into probabilities involving time, matter, and energy, combined with a huge imagination and copious amounts of wishful thinking.

Note; This text also asks the question; “How do you know that you believe in the correct god?”

The apparent design exhibited by all things does not tell us much about the creator. It only points to the existence of one, of the existence of a mind which did the creating. This fact probably cannot and should not influence science in any way. Science must continue plodding along looking for proof of everything, building its knowledge one hard earned truth at a time.

You are free to reply.

Thank you, I did.

 

[Monica4316]

NotReligious, can I make a suggestion?

If you have questions or want to debate, would you consider making another thread?

because the OP came here with questions and is looking to deeper their faith… it doesn’t help when someone is trying to argue for atheism.

To the OP:

Don’t worry too much whether your faith is “honest” or not… because often our feelings go against our will. What is in your will, that is honest. If you don’t feel close to God, that doesn’t make your faith dishonest or less real :hug1:

 

[NotReligous]

NotReligious, can I make a suggestion?

Yes, you can.

If you have questions or want to debate, would you consider making another thread?

Unfortunately, any threads discussing atheism get banned. (I got one banned before) But you are right, I shouldn’t have made this a debate thread, nor was that my original intention. Unless some one insists I continue, I will stop now.

 

[Edward_H]

My recommendation is we keep pursuing truth civilly until we get told otherwise.

NotReligious, Have you tried to order your objections as it were…I have to answer this question before that one…before any others, then this one has to pop up and be answered next?

Sometimes piled up things seem to be unsolvable…“wicked hard” as my Bostonian cousin you to say.

Or, maybe sort of in the opposite direction. “This seems possibly true…and assuming if it were it opens up some new threads that could be pondered for a bit”

Decompose into little things in other words.

Maybe remove some things that seems like needless “accretions” to the central question (formal denominations that have developed, human failures, misunderstandings, things like historical events…the inquisition, thoughts on indulgences". Things again, perhaps, not central to the central questions?

Just a proposal…write them down…and let’s walk through them.