What do you think of this?

  • Thread starter Thread starter traillius
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

traillius

Guest
" if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved "
  1. If you aren’t doing God’s will ( works ) then you don’t truly believe in your heart.
  2. confessing with your mouth, alone, is not enough. Belief ( expressed through works ) is necessary
  3. Do this now, and you will be saved in the future( death = salvation, no hell )
Why does anyone set up this false dichotomy between faith and works?
And what is this about " lest anyone should boast " people should not boast anyway.
Of course its done through Jesus. That doesn’t relieve us of the responsibility to do what is right.
 
traillius said:
" if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved "
  1. If you aren’t doing God’s will ( works ) then you don’t truly believe in your heart.
  2. confessing with your mouth, alone, is not enough. Belief ( expressed through works ) is necessary
  3. Do this now, and you will be saved in the future( death = salvation, no hell )
Why does anyone set up this false dichotomy between faith and works?
And what is this about " lest anyone should boast " people should not boast anyway.
Of course its done through Jesus. That doesn’t relieve us of the responsibility to do what is right.
Click to expand...
According to Eph 2:8-9 we are saved by Grace Through Faith. If works had anything to do with it (salvation), then the Bible doesn’t say how much and what kind of good works are needed. But it is a moot point because as you say the verse above teaches …Not By Works (why?) So That No Man Can Boast.
 
To have a party, I need a cake. But a cake without yeast is a waste, and not a very desirable cake. In the case of salvation, Yes I need the ‘cake’ of faith. But without the ‘yeast’ of works, tis a waste, and a flat undesirable faith. If I made a birthday cake without yeast for my wife, I doubt she would want to eat any of it. God is the same way.
Faith, if its genuine, automatically includes works. Hence, the catholic teaching that works are necessary, not to earn merit, but to prove and show evident, the faith necessary for the needed grace.
 
Jon_Hus said:
According to Eph 2:8-9 we are saved by Grace Through Faith. If works had anything to do with it (salvation), then the Bible doesn’t say how much and what kind of good works are needed. But it is a moot point because as you say the verse above teaches …Not By Works (why?) So That No Man Can Boast.
Click to expand...
How about:

1 Corinthians 13:2
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=13&l=2&f=s#x
2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Click to expand...
Romans 2
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=2&l=6&f=s#x
5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.
Click to expand...
6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.
Click to expand...
Matthew 25
drbo.org/chapter/47025.htm
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
Click to expand...
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
Click to expand...
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
Click to expand...
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
Click to expand...
 
I thought we were talking about salvation, not sanctification.
 
traillius said:
Faith, if its genuine, automatically includes works. Hence, the catholic teaching that works are necessary, not to earn merit, but to prove and show evident, the faith necessary for the needed grace.
Click to expand...
And, from Luther, in Article 13 of the Smalcald Articles:
We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t look like we are too far apart on this.🙂
 
Faith and not by works…
Flawed
If I were to say to someone I was considering hiring:
" you don’t need 120 college credits to get the job, you only need a bachelors degree. "
that would be stupid.
Its true all that person would need is the degree, but in order to get that degree, one would need 120 credits ( approx ), at least for accreditation.

I hope you can catch the metaphor.
Most do agree with me.
Sola Fide and OSAS aren’t biblical, or logical.
You need faith, and works don’t matter, for salvation.
although faith without works is dead.
So to have salvation you need faith
to have faith you need works
ergo to have salvation you need works. However you need more than just works.
" necessary but insufficient. "
 
I think you’re quite right… at least in some Roman Catholic circles. This is why Rome has stopped condemning the Lutheran position on Justification by Grace through Faith (unlike others on these forums that haven’t seemed to follow suit.)

I think the crux came when Rome finally understood that when Lutherans said we are saved by Grace through Faith in Christ alone, apart from works of the law-- we meant, and always clarified in our confessional documents, that such faith which saves is a living faith which works, and that we are not saved by the resulting works of faith.

So, when Lutherans say we are saved by Grace Alone, we mean that we cannot earn our own salvation-- not even a little. This much is concurred I believe by the Roman Catholic Catechism, and the JDDJ. When we say that Faith Alone receives this saving Grace, we mean a faith which is alive and producing good works-- also recognized as a valid expression by the Roman Catholics in the JDDJ. And when we say that we place that saving faith in Christ Alone, we mean that it is He alone who Justifies the repentent sinner and there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved-- and I believe the CCC also concurs on this point.

While Rome may continue to express herself in ways that still make Lutherans cringe, I believe that the current state of affairs in Roman/Lutheran dialogue does not permit a faithful Roman Catholic to condemn the confessional position of Lutherans on these points.

Grace and peace.
gcnuss said:
And, from Luther, in Article 13 of the Smalcald Articles:

It doesn’t look like we are too far apart on this.🙂
Click to expand...
 
stbruderklaus said:
I think you’re quite right… at least in some Roman Catholic circles. This is why Rome has stopped condemning the Lutheran position on Justification by Grace through Faith (unlike others on these forums that haven’t seemed to follow suit.)

I think the crux came when Rome finally understood that when Lutherans said we are saved by Grace through Faith in Christ alone, apart from works of the law-- we meant, and always clarified in our confessional documents, that such faith which saves is a living faith which works, and that we are not saved by the resulting works of faith.

So, when Lutherans say we are saved by Grace Alone, we mean that we cannot earn our own salvation-- not even a little. This much is concurred I believe by the Roman Catholic Catechism, and the JDDJ. When we say that Faith Alone receives this saving Grace, we mean a faith which is alive and producing good works-- also recognized as a valid expression by the Roman Catholics in the JDDJ. And when we say that we place that saving faith in Christ Alone, we mean that it is He alone who Justifies the repentent sinner and there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved-- and I believe the CCC also concurs on this point.

While Rome may continue to express herself in ways that still make Lutherans cringe, I believe that the current state of affairs in Roman/Lutheran dialogue** does not permit a faithful Roman Catholic to condemn the confessional position of Lutherans on these points**
The obverse is true, I would think, as well. Grace and peace.
Click to expand...
 
stbruderklaus said:
I think you’re quite right… at least in some Roman Catholic circles. This is why Rome has stopped condemning the Lutheran position on Justification by Grace through Faith (unlike others on these forums that haven’t seemed to follow suit.)

I think the crux came when Rome finally understood that when Lutherans said we are saved by Grace through Faith in Christ alone, apart from works of the law-- we meant, and always clarified in our confessional documents, that such faith which saves is a living faith which works, and that we are not saved by the resulting works of faith.

So, when Lutherans say we are saved by Grace Alone, we mean that we cannot earn our own salvation-- not even a little. This much is concurred I believe by the Roman Catholic Catechism, and the JDDJ. When we say that Faith Alone receives this saving Grace, we mean a faith which is alive and producing good works-- also recognized as a valid expression by the Roman Catholics in the JDDJ. And when we say that we place that saving faith in Christ Alone, we mean that it is He alone who Justifies the repentent sinner and there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved-- and I believe the CCC also concurs on this point.

While Rome may continue to express herself in ways that still make Lutherans cringe, I believe that the current state of affairs in Roman/Lutheran dialogue does not permit a faithful Roman Catholic to condemn the confessional position of Lutherans on these points.

Grace and peace.
Click to expand...
This is true… BUT, salvation by grace alone is VERY different than salvation by faith alone. Faith alone is patently incorrect. Salvation is like a pair of scissors that has Faith and Works for the blades. Without both of them the whole is lost. (Thanks Mr. Lewis)

FSC
 
Jon_Hus said:
According to Eph 2:8-9 we are saved by Grace Through Faith. If works had anything to do with it (salvation), then the Bible doesn’t say how much and what kind of good works are needed. But it is a moot point because as you say the verse above teaches …Not By Works (why?) So That No Man Can Boast.
Click to expand...
It does mention some works, such as caring for orphans and widows, but unlike the Old covenant, we don’t have this clear set of parameters to follow along the works element. They aren’t necessary to define because you by your new nature, will by default perform works as the fruits of it, the fruits of the faith you have so to speak. If you feel compelled to do something, ask yourself, where is this coming from, is it your worldly nature or is it the divine. You will find yourself in a struggle, thinking, this doesn’t feel natural, this is not something that people normally do, yet I feel compelled to do it in spite of that. It’s almost by new instinct you do these works, and holding yourself back from them, holds back your salvation. We must know that often we’ll be placing ourselves outside of our comfortable box of reality, that we may not be thanked or even noticed, we may even face ridicule and rejection, but we know what we are called to do and there should be absolutely nothing holding us back.
 
traillius said:
" if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved "
  1. If you aren’t doing God’s will ( works ) then you don’t truly believe in your heart.
  2. confessing with your mouth, alone, is not enough. Belief ( expressed through works ) is necessary
  3. Do this now, and you will be saved in the future( death = salvation, no hell )
Why does anyone set up this false dichotomy between faith and works?
And what is this about " lest anyone should boast " people should not boast anyway.
Of course its done through Jesus. That doesn’t relieve us of the responsibility to do what is right.
Click to expand...
You are correct and I think most believe in this, but I think this is a matter of everyone speaking past each other. When one say’s works isn’t needed, it just shows the incompleteness of their churches translation, that’s all. But I personally don’t know of any religion that tells people not to do works, do you?. I believe that if you do good works, then it is the same as believing. Because if one proclaims there is no Christ, but yet clothes the poor and annoints the sick, I think this person does truly believe because Godly actions from the heart speak louder then words.

I don’t think that anyone can argue with the fact that even the demons believe and have faith, yet their works are demonic which is why they are where they are. So no faith alone is not enough.
 
I’ve run into very few (in fact, I can’t think of any at the moment) who, on the Protestant side of the Christian divide, argue for any of the Solas apart from each other. Of course, outside the confessional boundaries of my own tradition, I know there is great variety… so I won’t suppose that I know them all very well.

However, the Lutheran position always argued those Solas from Christ at the center, and never intended them to be seperated-- perhaps another way of articulation would be that from Christ Alone comes saving Grace, and this saving Grace Alone is enough to save to pennitent sinner, and is received by a living Faith Alone which produces good works as its fruit.

Frankly, I find it nice to have things we don’t have to condemn each other over.

😉
FidesSpesCarita said:
This is true… BUT, salvation by grace alone is VERY different than salvation by faith alone. Faith alone is patently incorrect. Salvation is like a pair of scissors that has Faith and Works for the blades. Without both of them the whole is lost. (Thanks Mr. Lewis)

FSC
Click to expand...
 
traillius said:
" if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved "
Click to expand...
“If you believe in your heart” - faith
“and confess with your mouth” - works
“you will be saved” - saved
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top