What does 'Church no, Jesus yes' mean?

[jmcrae]

Salvation would still fit in that category.

Sorry, I must have missed something. Do you want the Pope to make a proclamation about who is saved or not saved? Other than, by the grace of Jesus Christ working through the Sacraments of the Church (which he already says) I don’t know what you mean, here.

The morallity of Holy War also, but for the sake of argument let’s say those do not qualify.

The Church already teaches that wars conducted in self-defense are morally acceptable - I’m not sure what you want added to that.

I don’t think we really want the Pope or the Church to pick out this war or that war and make an infallible declaration that this war was moral, but that war was not. War is a very complex situation, and in every war, there are immoral things going on that no sane person would ever want to defend, but at the same time, no one, least of all the Church, wants people to be so afraid of doing the wrong thing that they end up being taken as sheep to the slaughter, when they have both the ability and the moral right to defend themselves.

 

[PRmerger]

LOL, that is funny.

:yyeess:

I’ve learned over the years, especially on the internet I don’t always need the last word and in this case we’re off topic, but since** you are basically calling me out** I will respond. I believe I did in part give my** opinion** on this in the post I referred you to:

Indeed. I am calling you out. Not to share your opinion, for that is quite clear, but to back up your opinion with fact.**

Show us these proclamations from a pope about invading non-Christian countries or selling indulgences, declaring them to be moral imperatives Christians must engage in.

It seems rather odd that he wouldn’t use these abilities on some of the biggest moral questions like War and Salvation. It seems to me, and feel free to correct me if there is an example but the Pope only formally claims infailability on subjective issues no one could ever prove he’s wrong.

So show us the pictures.

 

[Esdra]

And you would be very Catholic in your interpretation of that verse, Esdra!

However, if your church is not offering this pure sacrifice, “from the rising of the sun to its setting”, then you are not part of the Church that fulfills this.[/quiote]

I’d be Catholic with this interpretation? How?

No, this sacrfice has been done ONCE. And it doesn’t need to be repeated each time at mass again.
In the OT, the Jews had to offer sacrifices to God (beside a pure heart, also animals), to put the wrath of Him away from them.
Jesus death on the cross is** the** perfect sacrifice.
God needed a sacrifice of a human, though without sin, so He Himself came in Jesus to the earth to restore the perfect relationship between Himself, God, and the humans, that was lost by the humans because of the transgression of the first man, Adam.
Now, if we believe in Christ as our Saviour, then we can have this perfect relationship again which humans had with Him in the Garden of Eden in the beginning of the world.

Now, can you please provide that list of “essentials” to which you referred?

 

[PRmerger]

I’d be Catholic with this interpretation? How?

The Catholic Church proclaims that there is only one holy and acceptable sacrifice, just like you claimed.

No, this sacrfice has been done ONCE.

Amen! Again, this is very Catholic of you to say!

And it doesn’t need to be repeated each time at mass again.

Catholics do not re-sacrifice Jesus each time at Mass.

What we do is participate in the One Holy Perfect and ETERNAL Sacrifice that is perpetually being offered.

Your church does not participate in this. Thus, it does not fulfill Malachi 1:11.

In the OT, the Jews had to offer sacrifices to God (beside a pure heart, also animals), to put the wrath of Him away from them.
Jesus death on the cross is** the** perfect sacrifice.

Amen!

God needed a sacrifice of a human, though without sin,

No, Esdra. The One Perfect Sacrifice of Christ was atoning and efficacious not because he was without sin, but because HE WAS GOD.

No human, however perfect and sinless, could have ransomed us from hell.

Again, it wasn’t because Jesus was sinless that he atoned for our sins, but because he is GOD.

 

[PRmerger]

Now, can you please provide that list of “essentials” to which you referred?

Believe in God, Jesus Christ, who has died for us on the cross so that we are freed and the Holy Spirit.
This is all ONE God.

I would say these are the essentials.

Jesus once had put it like this:

“34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
**36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. **”
(Matthew 22:34-39; KJV)

And if you love your God, the one God, YHWH, you will worship Him and do what He has commanded us. ("15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. " John 14:15; KJV).
And all what He’s commanded us to do is found in the Holy Bible. His Word. His love-letter to us humans.
(And this also includes loving your neighbour.)

in Christ,

This is a very curious and odd list.

You do not believe that belief in the Virgin Birth is an essential?

You do not believe that we must believe that “God created us” is an essential?

What about that we must repent in order to be saved? That is not an essential belief to you?

What about belief in the Trinity? Is that not essential?

And salvation by grace? Is that not an essential?

And here’s a very peculiar thing you left off your list of essentials: THE RESURRECTION! You do not believe this to be essential?


Do you see, Esdra, how making a list of “essentials” is subject only to your man-made, fallible decisions. There are no verses in Scripture which tell you what is an “essential” belief and what is secondary.

In order for you to make your list you must use a tradition–your own fallible one, or maybe one your borrowed from another fallible preacher–but there is nothing in Scripture that tells you what is “essential” and what is not.

 

[Esdra]

No, Esdra. The One Perfect Sacrifice of Christ was atoning and efficacious not because he was without sin, but because HE WAS GOD.

No human, however perfect and sinless, could have ransomed us from hell.

Again, it wasn’t because Jesus was sinless that he atoned for our sins, but because he is GOD.

It’s astonishing on how much we can agree on Malachi 1:11!

I think I wasn’t speaking enough clearly: Actually I meant quite exactely what you have written.
Jesus was without sin, but without sin ONLY God is.
That is what I wanted to say.

 

[Esdra]

This is a very curious and odd list.

You do not believe that belief in the Virgin Birth is an essential?

It is, it says so in the Bible…

You do not believe that we must believe that “God created us” is an essential?

Mhm, if you believe in the Holy Bible, then you also believe that God has created us, but not only us, also the whole universe - simply everything!

What about that we must repent in order to be saved? That is not an essential belief to you?

It is.

What about belief in the Trinity? Is that not essential?

I’ve written that above, but didn’t use the word Trinity!

Esdra:

Believe in God, Jesus Christ, who has died for us on the cross so that we are freed and the Holy Spirit.
This is all ONE God.

And salvation by grace? Is that not an essential?

We are saved by grace.

And here’s a very peculiar thing you left off your list of essentials: THE RESURRECTION! You do not believe this to be essential?

Of course it is an essential…
This is the A and O in the Christian faith, isn’t it? Otherwise we’d be Muslims…

Do you see, Esdra, how making a list of “essentials” is subject only to your man-made, fallible decisions. There are no verses in Scripture which tell you what is an “essential” belief and what is secondary.

In order for you to make your list you must use a tradition–your own fallible one, or maybe one your borrowed from another fallible preacher–but there is nothing in Scripture that tells you what is “essential” and what is not.

Yes, I can see that. But when I say “essentials” then I mean what ALL Christian denominations (the Trinitarian ones) can agree on. That’s essential for me…
I think, if you read the Bible you will find in many verses “essentials” - what makes the Christian faith.
But I am not Bible/Theology student and thus I won’t make this “complete” list.

in Christ,

 

[Pitcharan]

There is a quote by Pope Benedict that says (READ BELOW). I was wondering what does ‘Church no, Jesus yes’ mean?

I’ve heard that many fundamentalist Protestants believe in a ‘just me and Jesus’ religion. I believe that without the Catholic Church the probability of my salvation wouldn’t be very high. So what is this so-called ‘just me and Jesus’ religion?

What does ‘Church no, Jesus yes’ mean? It is the same as saying ‘Jesus no, God yes’.

Anyone who rejects the Church, rejects the Son.
Anyone who rejects the Son, rejects God.

 

[Esdra]

Yes, I can see that. But when I say “essentials” then I mean what ALL Christian denominations (the Trinitarian ones) can agree on. That’s essential for me…
I think, if you read the Bible you will find in many verses “essentials” - what makes the Christian faith.
But I am not Bible/Theology student and thus I won’t make this “complete” list.

in Christ,

Probably it’s easier to write a list what is NOT essential:

Honouring (and some people even “worshipping”, at least it seems so) Mary and the Saints.
Praying for the Dead. - Paying money for the Dead so that a mass is read for them and they will get out of purgatory more quickly.
Confessing in front of a priest and getting the absolution. (I am not sure if this word exists in English! Could be that it’s different in English. In German it’s “Absolution”.)
Baptizing Infants.
Worshipping in front of the Blessed Sacrament. (Idoltary?!) Honouring “Worshipping” in front of statues (Idoltary?!)
Just to name a few…

It may sound a bit Anti-Catholic now. I do apologize for that. But for me, these are not essentials…

in Christ,

 

[PRmerger]

It’s astonishing on how much we can agree on Malachi 1:11!

I think I wasn’t speaking enough clearly: Actually I meant quite exactely what you have written.
Jesus was without sin, but without sin ONLY God is.
That is what I wanted to say.

Angels are without sin. Adam and Eve were without sin for quite a time. Heck, even I am without sin right after I leave the confessional or even after Mass when venial sins are forgiven.

If an angel or Adam/Eve or I were to offer our lives up to God in ransom for our sins would that have redeemed us?

 

[PRmerger]

It is, it says so in the Bible…

Mhm, if you believe in the Holy Bible, then you also believe that God has created us, but not only us, also the whole universe - simply everything!

It is.

I’ve written that above, but didn’t use the word Trinity!

We are saved by grace.

Of course it is an essential…
This is the A and O in the Christian faith, isn’t it? Otherwise we’d be Muslims…

Right. And you failed to mention any of the above in your rather peculiar and arbitrary list of “essentials”.

Yes, I can see that. But when I say “essentials” then I mean what ALL Christian denominations (the Trinitarian ones) can agree on. That’s essential for me…

Right. And when you came up with your rather peculiar and arbitrary list of “essentials” you did not use the Bible to discern what’s essential. For the Bible does not tell us.

You used your own man-made, fallible tradition.

Which is why talking about “essentials” for all Christian denominations is inutile, unless you have an authority which determines this.

Naturally, this authority is found only in the CC.