What does God "want"?

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Vera_Ljuba

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If God does or permits something, then the only logical conclusion is that God does not object to it. It may be that God positively prefers it, or it may be that God is indifferent to it. To say that God does NOT want something, and yet he does / allows it would describe God to be an idiot. And that is not very complimentary.
 
We believe that God gives us free will.

If you consider everything that goes on in the entire world… all of the terrible atrocities that mankind commits etc., are you really saying that you believe that all of this evil is acceptable to God simply because he hasn’t destroyed us yet? I know it’s an odd question to one who doesn’t believe in God 🙂 sorry about that.

What I’m saying is that your conclusion is not the only logical one.
 
If God does or permits something, then the only logical conclusion is that God does not object to it. It may be that God positively prefers it, or it may be that God is indifferent to it. To say that God does NOT want something, and yet he does / allows it would describe God to be an idiot. And that is not very complimentary.
So let me try to syllogize this:

P:God allows something he doesn’t want,
C:Therefore, God is an idiot.

Okay, per the basic rules of rhetoric here, you seem to be missing a premise. So you don’t actually have an argument yet; just some inane declaration.

Are you assuming a hidden premise of “Only idiots allow things they don’t want”?
If so, let’s reform:

P:God allows something he doesn’t want,
P:Only idiots allow things they don’t want
C:Therefore, God is an idiot.

So let’s look at the soundness of premise #2. In order the reject it, we need to identify one case where it isn’t true.

I don’t think that would be very difficult. A few popped into my skull as I was typing this…
 
If God does or permits something, then the only logical conclusion is that God does not object to it. It may be that God positively prefers it, or it may be that God is indifferent to it. To say that God does NOT want something, and yet he does / allows it would describe God to be an idiot. And that is not very complimentary.
He wants us to be like Him, valuing and choosing the right thing: love above all else. He can certainly be non-idiotic while giving us the choice to be just-or not. If our own justice or “god-likeness” depends on our choosing it, which it certainly does even in the world of human affairs, then our own autonomy would be a requirement.
 
We believe that God gives us free will.
We probably have too much ability (and freedom) to wreak havoc on others (and not enough ability to prevent it). What is the point? A good constructor would only allow as much freedom as is desirable for whatever his plans would be. Take the developers of the new driverless cars. They take pains to allow a considerable freedom to their cars, to make sure that the cars work in an optimal fashion: bring the passengers to their destination as fast and as safely as possible. Presumably the cars could bring the passengers to their destination faster… but only if the safety would drop.

A smart constructor, who actually cares about the well-being of the passengers, would make as certain as possible that the people will stay safe, even if the time to get to their destination is somewhat sub-optimal.

So the next-to-unlimited freedom we “enjoy” points to two different options. One: the current state of affairs is exactly what God considers “proper”, he prefers all the rapes, murders, tortures as they are, or two: he does not care either way. By the way, the victims of our freedom do not enjoy the results of this freedom.
If you consider everything that goes on in the entire world… all of the terrible atrocities that mankind commits etc., are you really saying that you believe that all of this evil is acceptable to God simply because he hasn’t destroyed us yet?
Destruction is not the only option. A good constructor fixes the problems, and does not destroy the whole creation. Of course, if you believe that the flood was a historical event, then God already tried the destruction, but continued with the same flawed design, instead of trying something better. Either way, God is described as an uncaring, and bumbling constructor, or a vicious one. I see no reason why to “worship” such a God.
What I’m saying is that your conclusion is not the only logical one.
What else is there?
 
He wants us to be like Him, valuing and choosing the right thing, love above all else. He can be non-idiotic while giving us the choice to be just-or not.
If this world represents the “right thing” and “love”, then God is even worse than simply a well-meaning but totally inept creator. With “love” like that, who needs “hate”?
 
If this world represents the “right thing” and “love”, then God is even worse than simply a well-meaning but totally inept creator. With “love” like that, who needs “hate”?
I didn’t say that this world represents love, only that in this world we have the choice to act justly or not-and there are generally society-ordained consequences when we don’t. This world obviously misrepresents or opposes love constantly. Our choice.
 
If God does or permits something, then the only logical conclusion is that God does not object to it. It may be that God positively prefers it, or it may be that God is indifferent to it. To say that God does NOT want something, and yet he does / allows it would describe God to be an idiot. And that is not very complimentary.
I heard a story on the radio today about a man who had an injury to his eye that caused vision loss. He could not understand why God would allow that to happen to him. He went on a mission trip to a 3rd world country and while there, another person had something fly into his eye and, because they couldn’t get immediate care for it, he gave him some medicine that he had for his injured eye. The doctors said that the medicine that was used saved the eye and the vision for that man.

We live in a fallen world so stuff that we don’t like is going to happen. I don’t think any of us understands how or why God uses our choices, accidents, terrorist attacks, weather catastrophes, etc. His omnipotence is so so hard to fully grasp - I just have to accept that Good will come from the negative.

God bless,

Rita
 
If God does or permits something, then the only logical conclusion is that God does not object to it. It may be that God positively prefers it, or it may be that God is indifferent to it. To say that God does NOT want something, and yet he does / allows it would describe God to be an idiot. And that is not very complimentary.
Example from Genesis 2 where God gave man free will, but commanded against doing what He made possible:
15 And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it, and to keep it.
16 And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat:
17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.
 
We live in a fallen world so stuff that we don’t like is going to happen. I don’t think any of us understands how or why God uses our choices, accidents, terrorist attacks, weather catastrophes, etc. His omnipotence is so so hard to fully grasp - I just have to accept that Good will come from the negative.
God’s omnipotence allows him to do everything, except logically contradictory scenarios. And there is no logical necessity to allow something that God does not want.
 
Example from Genesis 2 where God gave man free will, but commanded against doing what He made possible:
15 And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it, and to keep it.
16 And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat:
17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.
A typical example of entrapment. If God really did not want them to ear from that tree, the simplest solution would have been NOT to plant that tree. If parents really do not want their child to poke a wire into a live socket, then they simply cover the outlet and do not allow that child to have access to un-insulated wires. Prevention always “rulez”.
 
God’s omnipotence allows him to do everything, except logically contradictory scenarios. And there is no logical necessity to allow something that God does not want.
So what does God do when He wants a man to worship Him and perform good deeds of his own free will, but the man does not?

That crumbling sound is your purely (and fallaciously) axiomatic position giving way to superior reasoning.
 
(1) Parents don’t want their children to make mistakes, but permit them to do so.
(2) Only idiots permit things they don’t want.
(3) Parents are idiots.

???
 
A typical example of entrapment. If God really did not want them to ear from that tree, the simplest solution would have been NOT to plant that tree. If parents really do not want their child to poke a wire into a live socket, then they simply cover the outlet and do not allow that child to have access to un-insulated wires. Prevention always “rulez”.
The tree can be seen as a symbol of having a will opposed to God’s. You can’t create beings with free will if their will is not free. Beings of free will may be a higher good even if it means permitting beings with will opposed to God, and it follows that they are a better image of God for having free will.

…And it doesn’t really follow why God would create a universe of onlu robots, as one, those beings would be less like Him, and two, you can’t truly share with robots. I can make them operate and act, sure, but without a will there can be no love, no reciprocation, no sharing between actual persons. And, in a world with no discord or inequalities, there’s no need for one person to give of himself to another. A world in which there’s no option for such self-giving among finite beings is a world that less closely resembles God, too, so the permission of such inequalities in creation actually allows creation to be more in the image of its creator. It’s in free will and self-giving that God is most perfectly imaged.
 
To directly address the topic title, God wants to share Himself. And He desires that we, created in His image, move our will in His image. But only beings with intellect and free will can share and will in this way. Only such beings are persons to share with. So our free will is permitted.

Is that entirely comprehensive? Perhaps not, but some things are beyond our ken. But, insofar as what can be said as to the big why, and after much inquiry, it seems the most rational reason.
 
So what does God do when He wants a man to worship Him and perform good deeds of his own free will, but the man does not?
Simple. God can foresee the man’s future behavior, and has the freedom to create or not create that particular person. If he does not like what the person WOULD do if he created him, then he can simply NOT create that man.

There is no logical necessity to create someone whose future behavior he does not like. 🙂
 
(1) Parents don’t want their children to make mistakes, but permit them to do so.
(2) Only idiots permit things they don’t want.
(3) Parents are idiots.

???
Humans have no power to foresee the children’s future behavior. And responsible parents habitually curtail the behavior of their children, when they see something they do not like. The desirability of uncurtailed free will is just your (in plural!) obsession.
The tree can be seen as a symbol of having a will opposed to God’s. You can’t create beings with free will if their will is not free. Beings of free will may be a higher good even if it means permitting beings with will opposed to God, and it follows that they are a better image of God for having free will.
There is no reason to give unbridled free will. Read my post (#5) about the development of driverless cars. Only an idiotic constructor allows TOO MUCH free will.
To directly address the topic title, God wants to share Himself.
If he really wanted to do that, he could have created us directly into heaven and share his beatific vision with us.
 
The Bible says in Habakkuk 1:13 that the
the prophet asked God what you are saying:
“You cannot tolerate those who do wrong,
so how do you explain the fact that you
remain silent while the wicked swallow up
those more righteous than they?”
What was God’s answer to him? He said:
“The time will come when the evil doers
will not survive, but the righteous will
live b/c they are faithful to God” vv. 3,4
Ecclesiastic 3:1 says that “There is a
time for everything”.
So, there is a time for evil to flourish and
a time for retribution of those evil-doers!!
and Paul, in wisdom that God has revealed
to him says:“But who are you, O man, to
talk back to God
, He hardens those He
WANTS to harden, and He shows mercy
to those whom He chooses to show mercy”
Rom. 9:15. 20
 
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