What does Paul mean here? (Ephesians 1:4)

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JamalChristophr

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*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,*
I think I know, but a non-Catholic friend of mine was disputing with me on the idea of pre-destination. Does it mean that God only chose some people for holiness but not others? Can one further infer that God is saying he chose to save some but not others? I’m not supporting this position. Just asking about it. Is such an interpretation incorrect or not?
 
JamalChristophr said:
*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.*

He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
I think I know, but a non-Catholic friend of mine was disputing with me on the idea of pre-destination. Does it mean that God only chose some people for holiness but not others? Can one further infer that God is saying he chose to save some but not others? I’m not supporting this position. Just asking about it. Is such an interpretation incorrect or not?
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Our free will enables us to choose to be “in Christ” or not. God shows no partiality towards anyone, “He desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth”.
 
I think interpretation hangs upon what Paul means by “us”. Who is he referring to? Mankind in general or the elect, if that is even the proper term to use in contrast to the whole of mankind.
 
JamalChristophr said:
I think interpretation hangs upon what Paul means by “us”. Who is he referring to? Mankind in general or the elect, if that is even the proper term to use in contrast to the whole of mankind.
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To me,“us” are the ones in Jesus Christ, not the whole world in general. Paul is addressing this letter to the “holy ones who are faithful in Christ Jesus”.
 
Do you not think that Paul’s words seem to contradict this Catholic notion though?
 
I mean by “catholic notion” the belief that God does not predestine some to go to Hell, and chooses some for heaven.

At least that’s how I understand it.

If I have not stated the Catholic Church’s position correctly on this issue, then I would like to be corrected.

I stand by what the Church teaches. If my position is not in accord with Catholic doctrine, then I’m sure my position is wrong and not the Church’s.

Non-Catholics who argue for predistantionism seem to agrue in this verse and in other places that they are correct in their view. By no means am I an expert on Calvin’s ideas but I was hoping to understand both sides a little better so as to be a better apologist for what the Church teaches and how Calvin’s interpretation of scripture in this regard is incorrect.
 
JamalChristophr said:
I mean by “catholic notion” the belief that God does not predestine some to go to Hell, and chooses some for heaven.

At least that’s how I understand it.

If I have not stated the Catholic Church’s position correctly on this issue, then I would like to be corrected.

I stand by what the Church teaches. If my position is not in accord with Catholic doctrine, then I’m sure my position is wrong and not the Church’s.

Non-Catholics who argue for predistantionism seem to agrue in this verse and in other places that they are correct in their view. By no means am I an expert on Calvin’s ideas but I was hoping to understand both sides a little better so as to be a better apologist for what the Church teaches and how Calvin’s interpretation of scripture in this regard is incorrect.
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I took this from the Catholic Champion website.
  1. Man cannot be saved without the efficacious and gratuitous grace given by God alone. The elect that God chooses are are not chosen because God foresees how the elect will respond to His grace, but because of His grace alone. The Council of Trent tells us that the gift of final perseverance cannot be obtained or merited, but it is given by God as a gift. Complete predestination, which includes first grace, as well as a series of graces up until glorification, is gratuitous and is chosen by God previous to foreseen merits. It is not based upon God’s foreknowledge. Finally no man can boast of being better than another, because it is God’s grace only that can elevate man to being better than another, not one’s own choices or works. If we say that we choose or act better than another apart from God’s grace, and as a result we are saved because of that choice or act, then we surely will be able to boast that we are better than another.
  2. God did not predestine anyone to evil, or to hell. The penalty of damnation is a result of man’s final impenitence, not caused by God, but only permitted by Him. So when a man commits evil, he does so willfully. When man does good, he is helped by God’s grace. God also in some way wills that all men be saved, but not all men will be saved. Man is saved by God’s grace, and man is condemned by his own freewill. God did not remove freewill from man. If man had no freewill God’s justice would mean nothing. Councils such as Thuzey, Trent and Quierzy affirm that God wills all men to be saved and that God does not predestine evil.
 
Correct I agree with the post above. However, what Paul says in that specfic scripture verse I quoted seems to contradict that.
 
JamalChristophr said:
*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.*

He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
I think I know, but a non-Catholic friend of mine was disputing with me on the idea of pre-destination. Does it mean that God only chose some people for holiness but not others? Can one further infer that God is saying he chose to save some but not others? I’m not supporting this position. Just asking about it. Is such an interpretation incorrect or not?
Click to expand...
The church has nothing against saying that God has pre-destined some to heaven.
It is just that he has not pre-destined some to hell.

For instance, Mary would be one by her very role in salvation history to be pre-destined to heaven, as mother of God.

St. Paul may be referring to himself as well in this sense, and maybe those whom he is speaking to.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
JamalChristophr said:
*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.*

He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Click to expand...
Its my opinion that this refers to Gods’ plan for humanity from the beginning. From the outset we were chosen to be holy and enter into a special union with God, above the angels. This was derailed with sin, and salvation was brought, but we are still as humanity destined for this stated. Though not all will arrive there.
 
bitznbitez said:
Its my opinion that this refers to Gods’ plan for humanity from the beginning. From the outset we were chosen to be holy and enter into a special union with God, above the angels. This was derailed with sin, and salvation was brought, but we are still as humanity destined for this stated. Though not all will arrive there.
Click to expand...
Yes, I tend to favor this interpretation but am open to hearing and considering contrasting views. It seems that Paul, as Peter said, can sometimes be a little difficult to unravel.
 
The call to holiness is universal. Holiness - a decrease in sin and an increase in virtue - is the universal vocation for all people.

See the 1987-2028 in the Catechism

God didn’t choose just some people to be holy. He calls everyone. God does not forget or give up on anyone. Some people simply choose not to be holy, that’s all, or choose not to try.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
The call to holiness is universal. Holiness - a decrease in sin and an increase in virtue - is the universal vocation for all people.

See the 1987-2028 in the Catechism

God didn’t choose just some people to be holy. He calls everyone. God does not forget or give up on anyone. Some people simply choose not to be holy, that’s all, or choose not to try.

-Tim-
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Thankyou, Tim.
 
bitznbitez said:
Its my opinion that this refers to Gods’ plan for humanity from the beginning. From the outset we were chosen to be holy and enter into a special union with God, above the angels. This was derailed with sin, and salvation was brought, but we are still as humanity destined for this stated. Though not all will arrive there.
Click to expand...
As one of the posts said, some of Paul’s writings are very difficult to understand, even Peter himself acknowledges that. This particular verse in Ephesians is certainly one of them, it goes very deep in the theology of salvation. This is why personal interpretation of the Scriptures results in many different ideas about what it is saying, in other words, you end up with many denominations claiming that they got it right, and everyone else is wrong. Is that what God intended? I think not.

Anyway, if there is anything that we can be absolutely sure of in this world, it is that God does not contradict Himself in Scripture. When it is said in 1 Tim. 2:4, “God wills everyone to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth”, He means that sincerely. However, not all will be saved, but that is because of one’s refusal of God’s grace, when their freewill choice condemn’s them.
 
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