What does the 144,000 who will be saved in the book of revelation symbolise or mean?

[John_Russell_Jr]

haha no it doesn’t. Read Revelation 14:3-4. The quote “defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste” came from there in regard to the 144,000. The 144,000 are either celibate virgins, or are holy men and women who’s souls have not been defiled by the harlot city. The 144,000 are the “first fruits” of the lamb, but not the only fruits. The multitude have equal standing as far as salvation goes and their robes have been washed clean by the blood of the lamb. I see nothing to suggest the “great multitude” are not written in the book of life just like the 144,000 are.

… my dear friend ,

… first quotes :

Rev.7

1. 
   ]9] After this I looked, and behold, a* great multitude** which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
   
   Rev.19
   
   1. 
      ]1] After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a* great multitude** in heaven, crying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
      ]6] Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a* great multitude**, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunderpeals, crying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
      
      Rev.14
      
      1]
      Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
      
      2] And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps,
      3] and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.
      4] It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb,
      5] and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.
      
      … i believe it is telling us that the 144,000 is only a symbolic number and the amount saved in heaven is a great multitude numerous as the stars or as many as the grains of sand on the sea , they are one and the same thing dear friend , does this answer your q ??? …
      
      … you are chaste by many means , sins against chasity forgiven by god are blotted out as if they never happened , or your a virgin , and in heaven all are made chaste and even virgins once again if necessary in my opine …
      
      … may god bless and lov you ,
      
      … john …

 

[TimothyH]

… my dear frriend ,

… i understand you but i’m quite entitled to unlock the mysteries and i think i have done so suffuiciently to know the whole revelation , time will tell i supposec , but thx for your contribution …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

John, I didn’t not question your entitlement to seek truth or to ask God for light. I’m sorry that is the way you took my post.

-Tim-

 

[Nate13]

… my dear friend ,

… first quotes :

Rev.7

1. 
   ]9] After this I looked, and behold, a* great multitude** which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
   
   Rev.19
   
   1. 
      ]1] After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a* great multitude** in heaven, crying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
      ]6] Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a* great multitude**, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunderpeals, crying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
      
      Rev.14
      
      1]
      Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
      
      2] And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps,
      3] and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.
      4] It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb,
      5] and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.
      
      … i believe it is telling us that the 144,000 is only a symbolic number and the amount saved in heaven is a great multitude numerous as the stars or as many as the grains of sand on the sea , they are one and the same thing dear friend , does this answer your q ??? …
      
      … you are chaste by many means , sins against chasity forgiven by god are blotted out as if they never happened , or your a virgin , and in heaven all are made chaste and even virgins once again if necessary in my opine …
      
      … may god bless and lov you ,
      
      … john …

1. 1. 
      In Chapter 7 it very distinctly shows that the 144,000 and the multitude are two different groups. You seem to be proposing that they are one in the same. The 144,000 are specifically said to be Israelites. The multitude is made up of people of all nations. It at least seems to me a clear distinction between the groups is being made.
      
      As I said before though I don’t believe the 144,000 necessarily means that group is made up of exactly 144,000 people so on that point I do agree. I just don’t see how you can say the multitude and the 144,000 are the same group when it appears a very clear distinction is made.
      
      I think its also possible that the 144,000 in Chapter 7 and the 144,000 in Chapter 14 are referencing two different groups of people. In my mind the group in Chapter 7 is in reference to the Old Covenant and the Israelites, and the group in Chapter 14 is in reference to the New Covenant and Christianity. In the Old Covenant you had the 12 tribes of Israel, and in the New Covenant you have the 12 apostles.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

In Chapter 7 it very distinctly shows that the 144,000 and the multitude are two different groups. You seem to be proposing that they are one in the same. The 144,000 are specifically said to be Israelites. The multitude is made up of people of all nations. It at least seems to me a clear distinction between the groups is being made.

As I said before though I don’t believe the 144,000 necessarily means that group is made up of exactly 144,000 people so on that point I do agree. I just don’t see how you can say the multitude and the 144,000 are the same group when it appears a very clear distinction is made.

I think its also possible that the 144,000 in Chapter 7 and the 144,000 in Chapter 14 are referencing two different groups of people. In my mind the group in Chapter 7 is in reference to the Old Covenant and the Israelites, and the group in Chapter 14 is in reference to the New Covenant and Christianity. In the Old Covenant you had the 12 tribes of Israel, and in the New Covenant you have the 12 apostles.

… my dear friend ,

… ch 1 to 7 speak of a historical account , ch 8 to 13 same again and this specifically covers the whole fatima revelation , ch 14 to 22 speaks of the last judgment and various things , there is overlap and intertwining in these accounts and you need to know this , it’s like 3 stories being told of the same and different stories at the same time , it’s not simple to understand at all …

… i could write a commentary on the lot as i see it and give a good idea but i don’t think i will , many aspects speak of the same things in different ways , and oft it goes from earthly to heavenly accounts , hard to explain , but 144,000 is one lot of people who are the great multitude written in the book of life , that is true i’m sure dear friend , what do you think on this ??? …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

John, I didn’t not question your entitlement to seek truth or to ask God for light. I’m sorry that is the way you took my post.

-Tim-

… dear friend , she’s cool , i’m njot angry , just talking , your entitled to try and solve this problem as you did and my reply was my contribution , we are making progress , that’s the way it shouold be , people keep going back and forth until the problem is solved to the satisfaction of all , this is how all human communication is supposed to work , so as long as you want to contribute towards solving any problems feel free to talk dear friend …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is a quote from the Aquinas Study Bible

7:4-8 hundred and forty-four thousand: This is the Church in its entirety, (St. Caesarius of Arles) which is descended from the patriarchs either by the lineage of nature, or the imitation of faith. For, he says, “if you be Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” Gal 3:29 (St. Bede) This number which is finite must be understood as signifying one that is infinite, and to be most certainly reputed as a sacred and mystical number, to signify the innumerable multitude of the elect. For by this is designated all the Church in its elect members; nor does it seem to pertain to the twelve tribes in the literal sense. (St. Ambrosius Autpertus) Tribe of Judah-Benjamin: The divine wisdom arranged certain names of locations to be written in the Scriptures to contain a certain mystical meaning. (Origen) According to St. Andrew of Caesarea, the meaning of the names indicated the different virtues and characteristics of Christians during the Great Tribulation. See below for the names of the tribes and their meaning.

7:9 great multitude: these are the same people that he saw in the mystery of the hundred and forty-four thousand. The Lord shows in the Gospel that the whole Church, made up of those from the Jews as well as from the Gentiles are designated by the twelve tribes of Israel, saying, “You will sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Mt 19:28 (St. Caesarius of Arles)

7:14 For these are not only martyrs, as some say, but all of the people in the Church, because he does not say that they have washed their robes in their own blood, but in the blood of the Lamb. (St. Caesarius of Arles)

 

[Nate13]

… my dear friend ,

… ch 1 to 7 speak of a historical account , ch 8 to 13 same again and this specifically covers the whole fatima revelation , ch 14 to 22 speaks of the last judgment and various things , there is overlap and intertwining in these accounts and you need to know this , it’s like 3 stories being told of the same and different stories at the same time , it’s not simple to understand at all …

I completely agree. The book of revelation is not written in chronological order. That is not surprising either since much of it is describing events in Heaven which is outside of time

… i could write a commentary on the lot as i see it and give a good idea but i don’t think i will , many aspects speak of the same things in different ways , and oft it goes from earthly to heavenly accounts , hard to explain , but 144,000 is one lot of people who are the great multitude written in the book of life , that is true i’m sure dear friend , what do you think on this ??? …

The 144,000 and the great multitudes described in both Chapter 7 and Chapter 14 are all in Heaven so all their names must be in the book of life haha.

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Here is a quote from the Aquinas Study Bible

7:4-8 hundred and forty-four thousand: This is the Church in its entirety, (St. Caesarius of Arles) which is descended from the patriarchs either by the lineage of nature, or the imitation of faith. For, he says, “if you be Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” Gal 3:29 (St. Bede) This number which is finite must be understood as signifying one that is infinite, and to be most certainly reputed as a sacred and mystical number, to signify the innumerable multitude of the elect. For by this is designated all the Church in its elect members; nor does it seem to pertain to the twelve tribes in the literal sense. (St. Ambrosius Autpertus) Tribe of Judah-Benjamin: The divine wisdom arranged certain names of locations to be written in the Scriptures to contain a certain mystical meaning. (Origen) According to St. Andrew of Caesarea, the meaning of the names indicated the different virtues and characteristics of Christians during the Great Tribulation. See below for the names of the tribes and their meaning.

7:9 great multitude: these are the same people that he saw in the mystery of the hundred and forty-four thousand. The Lord shows in the Gospel that the whole Church, made up of those from the Jews as well as from the Gentiles are designated by the twelve tribes of Israel, saying, “You will sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Mt 19:28 (St. Caesarius of Arles)

7:14 For these are not only martyrs, as some say, but all of the people in the Church, because he does not say that they have washed their robes in their own blood, but in the blood of the Lamb. (St. Caesarius of Arles)

… thx dear frriend for the quotes , i’m trying to unlock the mystical meaning of the number and maybe i have ??? , god bless you , john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

reply to Nate13

Originally Posted by John Russell Jr forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
… my dear friend ,

… ch 1 to 7 speak of a historical account , ch 8 to 13 same again and this specifically covers the whole fatima revelation , ch 14 to 22 speaks of the last judgment and various things , there is overlap and intertwining in these accounts and you need to know this , it’s like 3 stories being told of the same and different stories at the same time , it’s not simple to understand at all …

I completely agree. The book of revelation is not written in chronological order. That is not surprising either since much of it is describing events in Heaven which is outside of time
**
… in my opine there is no time here either or anywhere for that matter , time is just a measurement of change , but change is an illusion of necessity as we cannot exp our whiole eternity all at once , and god is just " now " in eternity , and must do all creativity " now " and not over time , you can measure time by change in the eternal realm of purgatory you know , there’s a lot more to this but this is what i think in brief …

… i could write a commentary on the lot as i see it and give a good idea but i don’t think i will , many aspects speak of the same things in different ways , and oft it goes from earthly to heavenly accounts , hard to explain , but 144,000 is one lot of people who are the great multitude written in the book of life , that is true i’m sure dear friend , what do you think on this ??? …

*The 144,000 and the great multitudes described in both Chapter 7 and Chapter 14 are all in Heaven so all their names must be in the book of life haha. *

… my dear friend , what is the haha for ??? , got me beat this , but yes they are in heaven , but anyone in grace is already in heaven , just not having the full experience of it here yet , may god bless and love you , john …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …