What does the Bible say about?

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Syele

The Bible may not say flat out that the world was completely free of suffering before sin but that does not prove anything, it is arguing from a logical fallacy Argumentum Ad Ignorantium. Scripture does allude to the idea that suffering is caused by sin in several places, including the Genesis account of the fall of man and verses like the ones below that let us know that if there is some natural reactions for our actions.

THE REPLY:
How is it a logical fallacy to say the Bible never says it is evil but it does show how it can be good? “Greater love hath no man than to die for one’s friends.” If weren’t made with the capacity to suffer then why is the greatest love a human can have require suffering? If it is not intended for us then why is it part of the greatest love?

The verse you used is not referring to suffering. That would be the interpretation of the pharisees of the time (if they read Paul) but it is referring once again to our spiritual death. Those who sow to the flesh will not receive Eternal life but will receive Hell. Those who sow to the spirit will receive eternal life. There is a difference in the suffering that is shoved upon us, and the noble suffering that we choose to take on. Both can help us, but the second

My comment:

It COULD and WOULD NOT be termed “paradise” if there was suffering:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Syele]

My comment:

It COULD and WOULD NOT be termed “paradise” if there was suffering:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat

Yup.

How is it a logical fallacy to say the Bible never says it is evil but it does show how it can be good?

Beacuse, unless I misunderstood you, you said that not saying something is true makes it false when you claim that genesis never said flat out that there was no suffering. I might never tell you I’m female, but that wont make me magically become a male. You cant prove it that way. And the Bible does say things that can be read to understand that there was not suffering before the fall, as PJM said, it was described as Paradise, Peopelr were said to be made in the image of God. These things dont give me a mental picture of suffering.

“Greater love hath no man than to die for one’s friends.” If weren’t made with the capacity to suffer then why is the greatest love a human can have require suffering? If it is not intended for us then why is it part of the greatest love?

Having the capacity to do something doesn’t prove that they did it. And it is part of the greatest love because you are doing something painful when you suffer for a friend, something you do not HAVE to do. It is a show of compassion and love for them. It is good for you because it is discipline. If there is no sin in the world why do you need discipline?

The verse you used is not referring to suffering. That would be the interpretation of the pharisees of the time (if they read Paul) but it is referring once again to our spiritual death. Those who sow to the flesh will not receive Eternal life but will receive Hell. Those who sow to the spirit will receive eternal life. There is a difference in the suffering that is shoved upon us, and the noble suffering that we choose to take on. Both can help us, but the second is what is needed to truly be like Christ. I think this is the main point of misunderstanding.

Of course taking on the suffering of others is like Christ, no one is arguing against that. (At least I hope they are not.) But sowing what you reap can easily apply to both Earthly and Heavenly things I don’t see how that is interpreting like a Pharisee. You cannot deny that if you shoot someone and then go to jail for it that that person will suffer from being shot and you may suffer in jail. Furthermore, if you fail to repent for what you have done, you will suffer Spiritual consequences for it as well. I don’t believe that you can sort everything into only on earthly or only spiritual categories. Such things are tied together as much as your soul is tied to your body until you die.

As for Biblical references for temporal consequences for sin, there are others besides that verse about reaping what you sow, Eve was cursed with pain in childbirth, Cain had to have a mark just so people would not kill him over his punishment for murder, Jonah ended up being vomited out of a fish and I’m thinking the three days in it weren’t so cozy, that that was after getting thrown out to sea even, David’s son died. There are MANY more like those. IF suffering is not tied to sin, why do you think all these Bible stories tell of people who suffered as a result of their sin?

*“Good understanding giveth favor: but the way of transgressors is hard” (Prov. 13:15)

“There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked” (Isa. 57:21).

“I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me.” (Exodus 20:5)*
*
“Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.” *(Hebrews 12:7-11)

 

[anruari]

Off the top of my head there is

“…take up your cross and follow me” - Jesus

“No greater Love has a man than that he lay down his life for another” - Jesus

“My sufferings make up for what is lacking in Christ’s” - St Paul

Then there are the beatitudes…
Blessed are those who = mourn = are poor in spirit = those persecuted for righteousness sake
“Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”

Paul says it best in Romans 8
When we cry, “Abba! Father!” it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. 18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

If we suffer with Him we will also be glorified with Him.

Peace
James

I’d like to second that opinion. Very well put!

 

[CopticChristian]

What does the Bible say about suffering and how does it fit into your own beliefs and understanding?

There was once a garden of Eden and there was no suffering…but by one man sin entered the world…Creation suffers.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

and so it goes…

It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Protestants usually use this to declare once saved always saved but what Paul is saying is a take off on the suffering of Creation, we are in it, and as we suffer, all the day long slaughtered like sheep, nothing will separate us from the love of God…don’t fear suffering…we conquer in suffering…Paul as you recall had a thorn in his side…

This is the way it is…

The best thing I have ever read on suffering and why bad things happen was written by John Paul II, found here…

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

1. Declaring the power of salvific suffering, the Apostle Paul says: “In my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church”(1).

These words seem to be found at the end of the long road that winds through the suffering which forms part of the history of man and which is illuminated by the Word of God. These words have as it were the value of a final discovery, which is accompanied by joy.