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dumspirospero
Guest
I would like to know what everyones thoughts are as to how purgatory will be? It will be a cleansing of the soul…so will it be painful? Will it be trying? Will it be hard? What do you all think?
- Status
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JimG
Guest
Yes, it will be a cleansing of the soul. It will be trying, and hard, and painful, and joyful at the same time. Even as one approaches confidently the throne of God, His glory and love is such that our imperfections cannot help but be burned off as we approach.
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Hesychios
Guest
Purgatory is a big kitchen and we are like turnips…
uh
uh
- never mind -
B
Bob_Baran
Guest
We will be cleansed of our sins so that we may have the ability to see God in his brilliance. I believe it will be a purging fire without flames.
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redeemed1
Guest
Pergatory is a non-existent place devised by pagans and adopted by the RCC in 1439 by pope Gregory, dogma #593 Council of Florence.
Just another addition to things that are not in the Bible but if as a catholic you don’t agree to you are anathema.
Oh by the way, it is no longer a curse to hell as it once was, now it just means you are not a recognized member if they pronounce that on you. Or so they will tell you.
Jesus is the truth and He promised to set you free.
John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Just another addition to things that are not in the Bible but if as a catholic you don’t agree to you are anathema.
Oh by the way, it is no longer a curse to hell as it once was, now it just means you are not a recognized member if they pronounce that on you. Or so they will tell you.
Jesus is the truth and He promised to set you free.
John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
M
Maccabees
Guest
Wow the raving anti-catholics are getting more ridculous with their claims all the time hey at least give us Tertullian in the 2nd century. We can document that and many church fathers explicitly after him and implicity with the earlier church fathers and the scriptures themselves. Heck its in Jewish tradition where do you think it came from. Historically speaking it comes from the book of Maccabees. Even if the Jews didn’t think it was canonical they did think Maccabees was historically factual thus the battles, the story of hannukuh, the traditons and stories in that book are considered authentic traditions of that time.
Now if Jews beleive that purgatory comes from their tradition then what does thay say about your ridiculous theory?
Stop reading Jack Chick will ya!
Of course since our church is the church connected to Judaism we remebered what the Jewish apostles orally taught us.
Your church which most likely founded by an american fundie has no such connection thus they wouldn’t know Jewish tradition if it hit them in the face.
M
Maccabees
Guest
Jewish Encyclopedia
PURGATORY: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/i.../www.jewishencyclopedia.com/images/spacer.gif
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/images/spacer.gifBy : Kaufmann Kohler
An intermediate state through which souls are to pass in order to be purified from sin before they are admitted into the heavenly paradise. The belief in purgatory, fundamental with the Roman Catholic Church, is based by the Church authorities chiefly upon II Macc. xii. 44-45: “If he [Judas] had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin”; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom. The same view, that an atonement should be made for the dead, is expressed in Sifre, Deut. 210. The idea of an intermediate state of the soul, release from which may be obtained by intercession of the saints, is clearly dwelt upon in the Testament of Abraham, Recension A, xiv., where the description is given of a soul which, because its good and its evil deeds are equal, has to undergo the process of purification while remaining in a middle state, and on whose behalf Abraham intercedes, the angels joining him in his prayer, whereupon the soul is admitted into paradise.
PURGATORY: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/i.../www.jewishencyclopedia.com/images/spacer.gif
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/images/spacer.gifBy : Kaufmann Kohler
An intermediate state through which souls are to pass in order to be purified from sin before they are admitted into the heavenly paradise. The belief in purgatory, fundamental with the Roman Catholic Church, is based by the Church authorities chiefly upon II Macc. xii. 44-45: “If he [Judas] had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin”; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom. The same view, that an atonement should be made for the dead, is expressed in Sifre, Deut. 210. The idea of an intermediate state of the soul, release from which may be obtained by intercession of the saints, is clearly dwelt upon in the Testament of Abraham, Recension A, xiv., where the description is given of a soul which, because its good and its evil deeds are equal, has to undergo the process of purification while remaining in a middle state, and on whose behalf Abraham intercedes, the angels joining him in his prayer, whereupon the soul is admitted into paradise.
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Maccabees
Guest
Rabbinic Views.
The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: “In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: ‘I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried’ [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, ‘He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again’” (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: “He who is ‘plenteous in mercy’ [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna” (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, “Ag. Tan.” i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: “From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched”; the former interpreting the words “from one new moon to another” to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words “from one Sabbath to another,” in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a). History of Purgatory.
The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta (“Bundahis,” xxx. 20): “All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk” (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the “ignis purgatorius” into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory (Origen on Ps. xxxvii., Homily 3; Lactantius, “Divinæ Institutiones,” vii. 21, 4-7; Jerome on Ps. cxviii., Sermon 20; Commodianus, “Instructiones,” ii. 2, 9); hence prayers and offerings for the souls in purgatory were instituted (Tertullian, “De Corona Militis,” 3-4; “De Monogamia,” 10; “Exhortatio Castitatis,” 11; Augustine, “Enchiridion ad Lauram,” 67-69, 109; Gregory I., “Dialogi,” iv. 57). Hence also arose in the Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish (see Ḳaddish).Bibliography: Boeklen, Die Verwandtschaft der Jüdisch-Christlichen mit der Persischen Eschatologie, 1902, pp. 118-125; Atzberger, Die Christliche Eschatologie, 1890, pp. 99 et seq., 162, 275; Herzog-Hauck, Real-Encyc, s.v. Fegefeuer; McClintock and Strong, Cyc. s.v.K.
The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: “In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: ‘I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried’ [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, ‘He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again’” (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: “He who is ‘plenteous in mercy’ [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna” (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, “Ag. Tan.” i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: “From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched”; the former interpreting the words “from one new moon to another” to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words “from one Sabbath to another,” in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a). History of Purgatory.
The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta (“Bundahis,” xxx. 20): “All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk” (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the “ignis purgatorius” into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory (Origen on Ps. xxxvii., Homily 3; Lactantius, “Divinæ Institutiones,” vii. 21, 4-7; Jerome on Ps. cxviii., Sermon 20; Commodianus, “Instructiones,” ii. 2, 9); hence prayers and offerings for the souls in purgatory were instituted (Tertullian, “De Corona Militis,” 3-4; “De Monogamia,” 10; “Exhortatio Castitatis,” 11; Augustine, “Enchiridion ad Lauram,” 67-69, 109; Gregory I., “Dialogi,” iv. 57). Hence also arose in the Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish (see Ḳaddish).Bibliography: Boeklen, Die Verwandtschaft der Jüdisch-Christlichen mit der Persischen Eschatologie, 1902, pp. 118-125; Atzberger, Die Christliche Eschatologie, 1890, pp. 99 et seq., 162, 275; Herzog-Hauck, Real-Encyc, s.v. Fegefeuer; McClintock and Strong, Cyc. s.v.K.
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RobedWithLight
Guest
Perhaps even if it were, the soul’s knowledge that he would be eventually accepted into the blessed company of the chosen of God would mitigate that soul’s suffering. Cleanse me with thy purging flame so that I may become worthy of thy presence!
Gerry
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liber8ed217
Guest
I’m sorry to say that I CANNOT believe in purgatory due to the fact that it is not taught anywhere in scripture… The Bible makes very clear what happens when a person dies…Luke 16:19-31
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Juxtaposer
Guest
Luke 16 says that the poor man went to "kolpon abraam", which means "bosom of Abraham". Luke does not say that the poor man went straight to Heaven.
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Maccabees
Guest
The concept is taught in scripture. But what about the word.
What about trinity that’s not in the Bible neither is the word the Bible, the word rapture evangelicals use these terms whose words are not in scripture. Don’t be a hypocrite here.
The Bible mentions places that are neither heaven or hell.
Sheol, Gehenna, Bosom of Abraham and Spirits in Prison.
Are you going to tell me these realms are not scriptural.
Like the article I provided by the Jewish Encyclopedia concludes that the catholic tradition of purgatory is a direct teaching that comes from Judaism who used other realms than heaven and hell.
And yes catholics do believe that after the judgment all go to heaven or hell. But their is a spiritual journey to cleanse oneself before the glory of heaven. Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage
The Jewish Talmud may be thought to indicate Purgatory in Sabbath 33b and Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a; a similar belief in the efficacy of prayers for the dead is manifest in the Mourner’s Qaddish which is prayed for 11 months after a loved one dies. The Septuagint Scriptures do include the Maccabees which incorporate prayer for the dead (2 Mac 12:42-45)
The Bible and Jewish and catholic tradition affirm the teaching of purgatory handed down to us by a Jewish Lord and Jewish apostles it took some crazy nazi monk to do away with it. Hardly a justification to throw away thousands of years of tradition and truth.
Even protestant author C.S. Lewis would admit that the doctrine of purgatory was true.
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RobedWithLight
Guest
Well, do you believe the book of Matthew was written by Matthew?
The Bible does not categorically say it is so.
On purgatory, let me just add to what others have already stated here. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. Yet it is likewise unjust to consign a soul to Hell just because he committed a small offense. In Hell there is no repentance, no cleansing, no hope, no redemption. It is a place of unending punishment, where the fire is not quenched, and the worm does not die.
Gerry
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gardenswithkids
Guest
I like to envission purgatory as God’s laundry room.
It’s the place where He cleans the stains of sin on our souls so that we can face Him robed in the garments of His righteousness. I seriously contemplate this while doing my own laundry, (which is incidently one of those simply, everyday tasks that we can offer up to God for the souls in purgatory.)
As in my own laundry, the stains are much easier to get out if treated immediately. Those daily examinations of conscience help to avoid the harder pains of purgatory after death. After death, any unrepented sin is tougher to remove, so the pains of removal are much greater. Offering up prayers, masses etc. for those in purgatory is like asking God to add extra stain remover to a soul already being cleansed.
Rev. 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
It’s the place where He cleans the stains of sin on our souls so that we can face Him robed in the garments of His righteousness. I seriously contemplate this while doing my own laundry, (which is incidently one of those simply, everyday tasks that we can offer up to God for the souls in purgatory.)
As in my own laundry, the stains are much easier to get out if treated immediately. Those daily examinations of conscience help to avoid the harder pains of purgatory after death. After death, any unrepented sin is tougher to remove, so the pains of removal are much greater. Offering up prayers, masses etc. for those in purgatory is like asking God to add extra stain remover to a soul already being cleansed.
Rev. 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
T
Trelow
Guest
I think of it as a line. Not much sucks more than waiting in line.
And essentially thats what your doing. Besides, it’s a good way to relate it to Protestants.
And essentially thats what your doing. Besides, it’s a good way to relate it to Protestants.
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manualman
Guest
Classical Protestants can’t believe in Purgatory because they don’t believe in HEAVEN! (Not as we catholics do, anyways)
Luther taught that the saved are like heaps of dung covered with perfect, pure white snow. But fundamentally, his vision of heaven is one populated by dung heaps!
The catholic understanding of heaven is that it is entirely populated by people who have been so transformed by Grace as to no longer have any inclination towards sin anymore. Since Catholics also believe totally in free will (versus some form of God FORCING perfection on us), and since we on earth are DEMONSTRABLY sinful in spite of being redeemed and penitant, there must be a way station of some kind where the process of sanctification is completed.
I have found that there are not so many classical protestants out there anymore who see heaven as a bunch of snow covered dung heaps. If they really do have the Catholic vision of a heaven filled with sanctified believers, it is not so hard to convince them of the truth of purgatory. Just don’t use the WORD purgatory until they understand the concept. Too much baggage/Chick tracts.
Luther taught that the saved are like heaps of dung covered with perfect, pure white snow. But fundamentally, his vision of heaven is one populated by dung heaps!
The catholic understanding of heaven is that it is entirely populated by people who have been so transformed by Grace as to no longer have any inclination towards sin anymore. Since Catholics also believe totally in free will (versus some form of God FORCING perfection on us), and since we on earth are DEMONSTRABLY sinful in spite of being redeemed and penitant, there must be a way station of some kind where the process of sanctification is completed.
I have found that there are not so many classical protestants out there anymore who see heaven as a bunch of snow covered dung heaps. If they really do have the Catholic vision of a heaven filled with sanctified believers, it is not so hard to convince them of the truth of purgatory. Just don’t use the WORD purgatory until they understand the concept. Too much baggage/Chick tracts.
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Maccabees
Guest
What if funny that outside of the Lutheran and Refromed circles you won’t find too many Christians that will buy into Luther’s theory of covered dung in heaven. (What is it whith Luther’s obsession with the excrement anyway). Most Methodist, Evangelicals and Pentacostals will agree with the concept of free will and holiness being a requiremnt of heaven. They are far closer to the catholic view in that sense. The concept of how you get holy is the stumper.
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James224
Guest
To Redeemed1,
By the way, Redemption doesn’t mean you are saved. Two different things.
His post needs to be answered. Here are a couple of examples. I could give more but we are limited as to the length of our posts.
“Every soul, therefore, is shut up in Hades? Do you admit it? Whether you do or not, it is a fact. And there are already punishments and rewards there; and there you have a poor man and a rich one. (Luke 16:22) The soul does not performall its operations with the assistance of the flesh; and divine judgement pursues even simple thoughts and mere desires.‘Whoever shall look in lust has already committed adultery in his heart.’ Therefore and on this account it is most fitting that the soul, without waiting for the flesh, be punished for what it did without the partnership of the flesh. And for pious and benevolent thoughts in which it shared not with the flesh, without the flesh it shall be refreshed**. In short, if we understand that prison of which the Gospel speaks to be Hades, and if we interpret the last farthing (Matt 5:25-26)to be the light offense which is to be expiated there before the ressurrection, no one will doubt that the soul undergoes some punishments in Hades, without prejudice to the fullness of the ressurrection, after which recompense will be made through the flesh also.”** **THE SOUL (58,1-8), TERTULLIAN 208 AD **(Jurgens, 352)
"A man who is under sentence of death, knowing that there is One who saves, One who delivers, says: ‘ In you have I hoped, save me’ from my inability ‘ and deliver me’ from captivity (Ps 7:2). I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however, they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest." Homilies On The Psalms, On Psalm (7,2), Basil 370 AD(Jurgens, 956)
May God bless,
James224
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By the way, Redemption doesn’t mean you are saved. Two different things.
His post needs to be answered. Here are a couple of examples. I could give more but we are limited as to the length of our posts.
“Every soul, therefore, is shut up in Hades? Do you admit it? Whether you do or not, it is a fact. And there are already punishments and rewards there; and there you have a poor man and a rich one. (Luke 16:22) The soul does not performall its operations with the assistance of the flesh; and divine judgement pursues even simple thoughts and mere desires.‘Whoever shall look in lust has already committed adultery in his heart.’ Therefore and on this account it is most fitting that the soul, without waiting for the flesh, be punished for what it did without the partnership of the flesh. And for pious and benevolent thoughts in which it shared not with the flesh, without the flesh it shall be refreshed**. In short, if we understand that prison of which the Gospel speaks to be Hades, and if we interpret the last farthing (Matt 5:25-26)to be the light offense which is to be expiated there before the ressurrection, no one will doubt that the soul undergoes some punishments in Hades, without prejudice to the fullness of the ressurrection, after which recompense will be made through the flesh also.”** **THE SOUL (58,1-8), TERTULLIAN 208 AD **(Jurgens, 352)
"A man who is under sentence of death, knowing that there is One who saves, One who delivers, says: ‘ In you have I hoped, save me’ from my inability ‘ and deliver me’ from captivity (Ps 7:2). I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however, they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest." Homilies On The Psalms, On Psalm (7,2), Basil 370 AD(Jurgens, 956)
May God bless,
James224
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Juxtaposer
Guest
The problem I have with the Catholic understanding of Purgatory is that it is viewed as punishment. If Purgatory is punishment, why did we need the Christ’s Crucifixion? It would seem to make more sense to say that Purgatory is the result of sin instead of punishment for sin.
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Nate
Guest
My understanding of Purgatory is that it is not a place where you atone for your sins, because if Jesus had not already atoned for your sins, and they were forgiven, you would not be in purgatory which is the gateway to heaven.
To understand what is meant by purgatory you first have to understand that sin has two conseqences. The first and most terrible is separation from God, which if made permanent is known as hell. This can only be remedied by God’s forgiveness through Christ’s sacrifice. The second consequence is temporal suffering inflicted on yourself or other people.
For example if a terrorist repents of his sins, he may be forgiven, but the damage he caused remains. The people that were maimed remain crippled, etc. Furthermore the evil that is done tends to propagate itself for long times and even sometimes grows. A person who lost a loved one may sulk and grow bitter, turn into a racist and commit other acts of violence in
retaliation.
Going to heaven involves sharing in God’s life. That means sharing to some extent in His knowledge, which greatly exceeds that which we have now. It means coming to recognize the full evil of the pain our sins have caused others and may still be causing others on earth. We have all heard the cliche “the truth hurts.” Well, God is the truth, and sharing His life may require an initial painful awakening. That is the pain of purgatory.
Obviously other people on earth can act to rebuild things you have damaged, and ease pain you may have caused. This will ease and hasten your own awakening. People can pray to God to intervene and heal the temporal suffering you have caused, and that can have the same result. The prayer of the Church toward that end, is called an indulgence.
To understand what is meant by purgatory you first have to understand that sin has two conseqences. The first and most terrible is separation from God, which if made permanent is known as hell. This can only be remedied by God’s forgiveness through Christ’s sacrifice. The second consequence is temporal suffering inflicted on yourself or other people.
For example if a terrorist repents of his sins, he may be forgiven, but the damage he caused remains. The people that were maimed remain crippled, etc. Furthermore the evil that is done tends to propagate itself for long times and even sometimes grows. A person who lost a loved one may sulk and grow bitter, turn into a racist and commit other acts of violence in
retaliation.
Going to heaven involves sharing in God’s life. That means sharing to some extent in His knowledge, which greatly exceeds that which we have now. It means coming to recognize the full evil of the pain our sins have caused others and may still be causing others on earth. We have all heard the cliche “the truth hurts.” Well, God is the truth, and sharing His life may require an initial painful awakening. That is the pain of purgatory.
Obviously other people on earth can act to rebuild things you have damaged, and ease pain you may have caused. This will ease and hasten your own awakening. People can pray to God to intervene and heal the temporal suffering you have caused, and that can have the same result. The prayer of the Church toward that end, is called an indulgence.
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