What God is and how He relates

  • Thread starter Thread starter aball1035
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

aball1035

Guest
My question is a little hard to put into words…

If God Is all knowing, powerful, the Supreme Being for the Universe, etc… then why isn’t there just His “spirit” and why are there “things”.

Maybe the question is-why is there something instead of simply God “being”?
 
God created us because He wants to give Himself to us and He is eternal absoute happiness. He wants us to be happy, basically. It is out of Mercy that He created us.
 
My question is a little hard to put into words…

If God Is all knowing, powerful, the Supreme Being for the Universe, etc… then why isn’t there just His “spirit” and why are there “things”.
Creation is in God’s nature. God didn’t choose to create. That’s a possibility- it may not be something fully rational. It may be something like why play the piano, when you could just sit and stare at a wall for a long time.
 
Creation is in God’s nature. God didn’t choose to create. That’s a possibility- it may not be something fully rational. It may be something like why play the piano, when you could just sit and stare at a wall for a long time.
I would say that God needn’t “choose” to create; He just wills creation. And because His being permeates all of creation, “things” continue to be in existence.🙂
 
Aball, that is actually a very good question. The usual thing you have been exposed to as a Catholic, whatever your perception of Papal lineage, is that God created the world as we know it and that the God of creation has three personalities.

Many people, even I, would agree with that, because due to their understanding, christianist, Buddhist. or whatever, there is a modification of that statement in different systems of perception that appears to fit, despite being controversial from the perspective of the *other *interprtetations.

What I’m saying is is that your question is only possible due to the assumptions basic to your faith, and for no other reason. For instance, in another system that has great practical value due to its simplicity, the Allness of God *includes “Creation” as a factor of Being.*That is to say that God, already being ALL, and immovable and eternal, and all that, has always and everywhen included all possibility, including that of viewing those possibilities as appearently discreet individuals from as many perspectives as there are such “individuals.” It is a pre-existing and necessary component of ALLNESS. So it only appears to “us” that there is a disconnect between manifestation and God Being, a disconnect that is due to ignorance by not being the whole, or ALL as far as perception. It is very subtle, and it makes such things as Catholicsim exhorbitantly complicated in terms of exegesis. Nevertheless, by Occams razor, it is the by far most viable explanation of your queston, i.e. God and Creation are ONE, never separate, and always NEW, yet appearing from the perspective of person (the root meaning of “person” is “mask”) to be composed of parts. There is no “instead” as it is all of a piece. How can God be different or separate from God Being ALL?
 
God created us because He wants to give Himself to us and He is eternal absoute happiness. He wants us to be happy, basically. It is out of Mercy that He created us.
because He “wants” someone to love, because it is His “nature” to love.
 
I wouldn’t say that creation is something necessitated by God’s nature, in the sense of “God is compelled to create.” But God is infinite love, and love is fecund. That is, love reaches outward to the other. For God to reach outward–i.e., outside of Himself, he must create, and he must create out of nothing. (His nature is indivisible, so He can’t use himself as the substance of creation.) God is also able to reach inward: through His knowing and loving, the Trinity is generated, a trinity of Persons without subdividing his nature, which is one.
 
Of course, it is all a mystery how the Trinity was generated. God’s nature is a mystery also. But through study (perhaps with some sprinkles of revelation, thanks to the Holy Spirit who blows where He will). My understanding is that the Father’s love generated the Son and that, together, their love for each other generates the Holy Spirit–yet, they are eternal with all the attributes one to another. A mystery to be sure. Maybe someone has more knowledge on this topic.

Also, I’d like some perspective on how God exists. For example, why does there have to be a Prime Mover as opposed to an infinate regression of causes? Why is there just one Prime Mover as opposed to several (perhaps at different times)? Why does the PM have to have to be a personality, as opposed to being an aspect of nature (which seemed to be suggested in a post above)? Why does the PM have to be good, as opposed to evil or simply disinterested? What is the nature of cause and effect? All causes we know of are physical causes applicable to the physical universe. Yet we claim a non-physical cause.
How does that work? And how do we take into account the fact that we “know” of uncaused events at the sub-atomic level, which completely destroys the First Cause argument?

The point being made is that “causality depends on time and so is only a part of the universe. This means the universe as a whole (throughout time) is causeless.” To have a cause requires time. No time, no causality. The laws of conservation apply to events in time.

If it seems as though I’m playing Devil’s Advocate, that’s correct. Actually, I came across some of these ideas on another board. I hope to back up my assertions with some scientifc knowledge. 😉

Einstein: “I know two things that are infinate: the universe and man’s stupidity. And I’m not sure about the universe.”
 
Of course, it is all a mystery how the Trinity was generated. God’s nature is a mystery also. But through study (perhaps with some sprinkles of revelation, thanks to the Holy Spirit who blows where He will). My understanding is that the Father’s love generated the Son and that, together, their love for each other generates the Holy Spirit–yet, they are eternal with all the attributes one to another. A mystery to be sure. Maybe someone has more knowledge on this topic.
A slight clarification: The Son is said to be generated through the knowledge of the Father. The father, knowing himself, generates the Divine Word, speaking out his essence, metaphorically. Father and Son, in a free exchange of perfect love, generate the Holy Spirit.

You do pose some good questions about the attributes of God, and they are question that have been addressed by theologians. I don’t have time to go into them now, but a good source material would be Frank Sheed’s two books *Theology for Beginners *and Theology and Sanity.
 
A slight clarification: The Son is said to be generated through the knowledge of the Father. The father, knowing himself, generates the Divine Word, speaking out his essence, metaphorically. Father and Son, in a free exchange of perfect love, generate the Holy Spirit.

You do pose some good questions about the attributes of God, and they are question that have been addressed by theologians. I don’t have time to go into them now, but a good source material would be Frank Sheed’s two books *Theology for Beginners *and Theology and Sanity.
That was a very eloquent explanation of the Trinity. It’s just so hard for humans to understand that this continuous generation plays out all of eternity rather than as an event in time. I believe there is another thread that discusses whether there is time in Heaven. Responding to the second part of the question, how God relates (I’m not exactly sure what the OP meant about relating, relating to what?), I’ll take it to mean how He relates to Himself in the Blessed Trinity.

My understanding is that God does not operate in time (since Eternity connotes timelessness), and He permeates all of His creation (including every possible universe) as well as Heaven, Hell and Purgatory (or they couldn’t remain in existence.

I think that in Heaven, we’ll be able to witness the Ascension, Assumption, Coronation of Mary, Kingship of Christ, and even creation all in something less than a nanosecond (throughout eternity) because we will not be confined to space and time. (Others think there may be a time element in the afterlife).

I’m making note of those two books you suggested (after I finish Summa Theological for Dummies!) 😃 It’s actually called St. Thomas for Beginners.
 
Aball, that is actually a very good question. The usual thing you have been exposed to as a Catholic, whatever your perception of Papal lineage, is that God created the world as we know it and that the God of creation has three personalities.

Many people, even I, would agree with that, because due to their understanding, christianist, Buddhist. or whatever, there is a modification of that statement in different systems of perception that appears to fit, despite being controversial from the perspective of the *other *interprtetations.

What I’m saying is is that your question is only possible due to the assumptions basic to your faith, and for no other reason. For instance, in another system that has great practical value due to its simplicity, the Allness of God *includes “Creation” as a factor of Being.*That is to say that God, already being ALL, and immovable and eternal, and allthat, has always and everywhen included all possibility, including that of viewing those possibilities as appearently discreet individuals from as many perspectives as there are such “individuals.” It is a pre-existing and necessary component of ALLNESS.

So it only appears to “us” that there is a disconnect between manifestation and God Being, a disconnect that is due to ignorance by not being the whole, or ALL as far as perception. It is very subtle, and it makes such things as Catholicsim exhorbitantly complicated in terms of exegesis. Nevertheless, by Occams razor, it is the by far most viable explanation of your queston, i.e. God and Creation are ONE, never separate, and always NEW, yet appearing from the perspective of person (the root meaning of “person” is “mask”) to be composed of parts. There is no “instead” as it is all of a piece. How can God be different or separate from God Being ALL?
Hi Dedalus!

Your post contained some complex ideas (at least to me :confused:). You said that "God and Creation are ONE, never separate. . . " That suggests pantheism to me. God permeates the ALL of creation but is also separate as a Being, the Supreme Being who made all things. One might suggest X > A + B + C. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your assertion, or falling prey to Occam’s razor.

Philosopher wannabe,
Rookie
 
The title of the book I referred to in post #10 is really A First Glance At St. Thomas Aquinas–A Handbook For Peeping Thomists by Ralph McInerny. I should have checked the title before citing it. :o
 
I have seen nothing from the Catholic Church that correctly perceives Advaita, or non-dualism, which is far from pantheism. All tracts from the Church concerning it are misleading and disinformative at best. Also, the distinction you speak of regarding God and creation is so, and yet not so. Rom my perspctive, the Church has all the right elements of the scenario, but has, due to anthropomorphism, scrambled them up and made it far too complex, and very unnecessarily so. Nevertheless, it will, as will many of it’s members, argue their mispeception till they die. At which point i’m guessing they will all have a good laugh at themselves, and eveyone else who anthropomorphised.

Also, thanks for the math, but though God may be pointed to, God cannot be described other than as an incoprehensible ALL or by negation of everything not real or unchanging. In fact, as distinct from dogma, a very direct perception of … oh, never mind.

BTW, I know there is a “Daedelus” on here, but how did you manage to ascribe that name to me? On the other hand, such a misperception explains much about many points of view on these forums.

Blessings on you and yours,

Bindar Doondat
 
I have seen nothing from the Catholic Church that correctly perceives Advaita, or non-dualism, which is far from pantheism. All tracts from the Church concerning it are misleading and disinformative at best. Also, the distinction you speak of regarding God and creation is so, and yet not so. Rom my perspctive, the Church has all the right elements of the scenario, but has, due to anthropomorphism, scrambled them up and made it far too complex, and very unnecessarily so. Nevertheless, it will, as will many of it’s members, argue their mispeception till they die. At which point i’m guessing they will all have a good laugh at themselves, and eveyone else who anthropomorphised.

Also, thanks for the math, but though God may be pointed to, God cannot be described other than as an incoprehensible ALL or by negation of everything not real or unchanging. In fact, as distinct from dogma, a very direct perception of … oh, never mind.

BTW, I know there is a “Daedelus” on here, but how did you manage to ascribe that name to me? On the other hand, such a misperception explains much about many points of view on these forums.

Blessings on you and yours,

Bindar Doondat
Detales,

First of all, allow me to offer sincere apologies for misrepresenting your name/moniker. I would hope my error does not reflect any “misperception” of various points of view on these threads. 😊

At any rate, describing God as the “incomprehensible ALL” is a realistic positive definition. The “ALL” must include the qualities or attributes of God–Eternal, Transcendent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Immutable and so on. The definition of God by examining what He isn’t, “the negation of everything not real,” is realistic as well. But, to complete that sentence as “the negation of everything not real or unchanging” doesn’t seem to work from the semantics point of view unless you meant that He is unchanging.

I don’t understand how the Church, IYO, made everything “complex” regarding anthropomorphism and non-dualism. But don’t feel obliged to introduce Philosophy 101 on this thread for my sake. My only hope is to learn a little bit here and there.

Many blessings,
Rookie
 
I have seen nothing from the Catholic Church that correctly perceives Advaita, or non-dualism, which is far from pantheism.
Then, it must be monism, or, at least sufficiently like monism to impart a strikingly similar aroma.
All tracts from the Church concerning it are misleading and disinformative at best. Also, the distinction you speak of regarding God and creation is so, and yet not so. Rom my perspctive, the Church has all the right elements of the scenario, but has, due to anthropomorphism, scrambled them up and made it far too complex, and very unnecessarily so. Nevertheless, it will, as will many of it’s members, argue their mispeception till they die. At which point i’m guessing they will all have a good laugh at themselves, and eveyone else who anthropomorphised.
If, in fact, I am correct and yours is the practice of monism, then there is no place for Christ, in your philosophy.
Also, thanks for the math, but though God may be pointed to, God cannot be described other than as an incoprehensible ALL or by negation of everything not real or unchanging. In fact, as distinct from dogma, a very direct perception of … oh, never mind.
Sounds more and more like monism every minute.

jd
 
… Nevertheless, by Occams razor, it is the by far most viable explanation of your queston, i.e. God and Creation are ONE, never separate, and always NEW, yet appearing from the perspective of person (the root meaning of “person” is “mask”) to be composed of parts. There is no “instead” as it is all of a piece. How can God be different or separate from God Being ALL?
I believe the principle of Occam’s Razor is to use the simplest explanation which explains the observed phenomenon with as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference. Claiming Occam’s Razor as controlling in explaining God’s relationship to His creation as only immanent is invalid because it does not explain the phenomena adequately: “God and Creation are ONE” infers that a cause may be its own effect. This violates natural reason.

A creator of anything transcends his creation as the sculptor is not part of his statue. How more so is it with God who creates ex nihilo with only His Word?

Peace,
O’Malley
 
Also, thanks for the math, but though God may be pointed to, God cannot be described other than as an incoprehensible ALL or by negation of everything not real or unchanging. In fact, as distinct from dogma, a very direct perception of … oh, never mind.
God cannot be described other than as an incomprehensible …

That is the first truth and problem. Philosophy can only give a hint at the idea of God. Catholic teaching is compatible with reason and offers some truths about the nature of God, while admitting that the mysteries are impossible for the human mind to fully comprehend.

A definition of God as a negation of everything not real or unchanging sort of works in theory. But it contradicts the idea that God is ALL and therefore one with creation, since the created universe is changing.

God is all good and the perfection of all good, beyond which nothing more good can be imagined.
 
Of course, it is all a mystery how the Trinity was generated. God’s nature is a mystery also. But through study (perhaps with some sprinkles of revelation, thanks to the Holy Spirit who blows where He will). My understanding is that the Father’s love generated the Son and that, together, their love for each other generates the Holy Spirit–yet, they are eternal with all the attributes one to another. A mystery to be sure. Maybe someone has more knowledge on this topic.
With your permission, I will try to give you some succinct 😃 answers to the questions you’ve posed, although I must say that much better answers are sprinkled all over this forum. There are two concepts one must grasp and keep in mind: (1) the concept of time; and, (2) the concept of sequence both of which we will get back to later on.

In John’s gospel, the author states that, “In the beginning was the Word…” As we read other parts of the New Testament, we come to discover that Christ is [also] the Word. Further, He is, He that “…am who am.” These indicate that He was always there, with the Father (God) and what is more, He, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, not only exists, but also, IS Existence per se.

Now, we know that for natural creatures (such as we humans), it is in the nature of said creatures to exist as singular, unified ones, although, said creatures are body (corporeal matter) and soul (incorporeal matter) in some sort of unity. How we are unified is quite mysterious even though there are lots of books written on the subject. But, at least it does give us a peek, if you will, at the mystery of the Trinity.

It is the nature of God to exist as more than one person (which we can explore later on), as it is the nature of natural creatures to exist as ensouled matter. I know that some will try to disqualify the concept of the “nature of a thing”, but, it is in the nature of our rational minds to strive to understand things, and being, by extracting their universals.
Also, I’d like some perspective on how God exists. For example, why does there have to be a Prime Mover as opposed to an infinite regression of causes?
There cannot be an infinite regress because our natural and scientific experience with the world and the universe tells us that it is finite, for one thing. It is certainly huge, but, a huge finite number (called a “transfinite”) is still a finite. If it is finite, then there must be a beginning, or First Mover.

If, on the other hand, the universe is infinite, then there would be no First mover and thus no secondary, or, tertiary, or, quaternary, etc., movers. “Motion”, in this regard, really means “change”. It can be as simple as a change of positions (local motion), or, more complex, as “coming to be.” But, in general, it means the more complex “change”.

Think of the alternative - infinite reality - like this: there would be no bounds, no beginning, no ending. It would be as a circle. Now, in such a circle, with an infinite number of things (if such was at all possible) there would be nothing to change. Everything would already be in act. There would be no potency to act. But, that would be absurd. It would defy our senses. Remember, we experience change. That means, we experience things at rest (before change), or, in potency, and after change, or, in actuality. At some point, on an infinite chain, all things would be in act (fully actualized), thus, change (motion) would no longer occur and it would come to a complete stop.

I must stop now, but, either I will resume later, or, someone else will take up the gauntlet and do a better job than me. If not, I’ll continue later this evening. The need to do this is out of my control!😦

jd
 
A question for Detales:

How do you reconcile, or, regard, Christ? Who is He, to you, and, more importantly, what is He to your philosophy? So far, it appears that you regard Him as that “anthropomorphic” jinx Christians threw into the mix in order to muck things up a bit.

jd
 
With your permission, I will try to give you some succinct 😃 answers to the questions you’ve posed, although I must say that much better answers are sprinkled all over this forum. There are two concepts one must grasp and keep in mind: (1) the concept of time; and, (2) the concept of sequence both of which we will get back to later on.

In John’s gospel, the author states that, “In the beginning was the Word…” As we read other parts of the New Testament, we come to discover that Christ is [also] the Word. Further, He is, He that “…am who am.” These indicate that He was always there, with the Father (God) and what is more, He, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, not only exists, but also, IS Existence per se.

Now, we know that for natural creatures (such as we humans), it is in the nature of said creatures to exist as singular, unified ones, although, said creatures are body (corporeal matter) and soul (incorporeal matter) in some sort of unity. How we are unified is quite mysterious even though there are lots of books written on the subject. But, at least it does give us a peek, if you will, at the mystery of the Trinity.

It is the nature of God to exist as more than one person (which we can explore later on), as it is the nature of natural creatures to exist as ensouled matter. I know that some will try to disqualify the concept of the “nature of a thing”, but, it is in the nature of our rational minds to strive to understand things, and being, by extracting their universals.

There cannot be an infinite regress because our natural and scientific experience with the world and the universe tells us that it is finite, for one thing. It is certainly huge, but, a huge finite number (called a “transfinite”) is still a finite. If it is finite, then there must be a beginning, or First Mover.

If, on the other hand, the universe is infinite, then there would be no First mover and thus no secondary, or, tertiary, or, quaternary, etc., movers. “Motion”, in this regard, really means “change”. It can be as simple as a change of positions (local motion), or, more complex, as “coming to be.” But, in general, it means the more complex “change”.

Think of the alternative - infinite reality - like this: there would be no bounds, no beginning, no ending. It would be as a circle. Now, in such a circle, with an infinite number of things (if such was at all possible) there would be nothing to change. Everything would already be in act. There would be no potency to act. But, that would be absurd. It would defy our senses. Remember, we experience change. That means, we experience things at rest (before change), or, in potency, and after change, or, in actuality. At some point, on an infinite chain, all things would be in act (fully actualized), thus, change (motion) would no longer occur and it would come to a complete stop.

I must stop now, but, either I will resume later, or, someone else will take up the gauntlet and do a better job than me. If not, I’ll continue later this evening. The need to do this is out of my control!😦

jd
Hi jd!

Thanks for your analysis. It’s enlightening and helpful.
I am curious as to why, as you stated, “It is the nature of God to exist as more than one person. . . as it is the nature of natural creatures to exist as ensouled matter.” In discussing this issue on other boards, the idea of the “nature of a thing” rings hollow. (Modernity). I’m trying to do more reading on this subject, as well as philosophy in general. St. Thomas Aquinas for dummies!!! 😃

My understanding is that everything had to have been caused since we can see their effects. (Someone posited that that premise is false since “many quantum level events are uncaused.” An example is radioactive decay. It was stated that “There is no cause of a single decay in a single atom; it is a purely probabilistic event.”) From the argument of causality, it follows that the universe, too, had to have a cause. I was informed that I had to establish that the universe is a single “event,” and that there was a single cause rather than multiple causes. Also, that the First Cause has a personality which deserves the designation of “God.” (Is it a “Supreme Being”?) 🤷
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top