What happened to Limbo and where do aborted babies go?

[Hab]

Something like Limbo is, in fact, a part of the Magisterium. It was endorsed in the Council of Florence (which, IIRC, quoted Aquinas word for word on the matter) and has appeared in at least one Papal bull directly and several others have condemned contrary positions as heretical. Pius IX, for instance, condemned the Jansenist teaching that Limbo was a Pelagian fable revived by Scholastics.

The Church doesn’t really talk about it presently, primarily for pastoral reasons (if the ITC document on the matter is any indication of the mood in the Vatican, which it is) and also of course because of the understanding that God Himself is not bound by the sacraments – something which previous generations of the Church were not ignorant of (e.g., Aquinas wrote as much) and did not think contradicted Limbo. The present framing of the Church’s teaching, that she “can only entrust them to the mercy of God,” does not really say much of anything either way, and certainly doesn’t contradict its previous teachings.

 

[Hab]

But limbo was never declared an infallible teaching

 

[Jeanne_S]

I think all we know officially is that they don’t go to hell, or that is the belief, because of God’s mercy. I would like to think they go to heaven because in their death at the hands of those who know not what they do, I feel they are in some sense martyred. I know the limbo idea is still on the table as a possibility, but I don’t think we have any official teaching on it because there isn’t really anywhere in either Scripture or Tradition in which it is talked about. I would say that we just have to pray that in God’s Grace and Mercy that He lovingly accepts them into His Kingdom with open arms.

:thumbsup:Beautifully said! OurGod is a loving God.If we believe that He extends His mercy and forgiveness to those ,who through repentance ,ask for it, after having partiipated in abortion,then I have to believe His compassion would be extended to all those innocent little souls who were denied life through abortion.

 

[Jeanne_S]

I have a very difficult time believing that these babies are anywhere either than in the arms of Jesus and his mother Mary. I would like to know when our soul is joined with our body. Is it at the moment of conception or at the moment of live birth and we take our first breath?

Amen!!

 

[Marc_Anthony]

:thumbsup:Beautifully said! OurGod is a loving God.If we believe that He extends His mercy and forgiveness to those ,who through repentance ,ask for it, after having partiipated in abortion,then I have to believe His compassion would be extended to all those innocent little souls who were denied life through abortion.

You’re allowed to believe that, but we do NOT know that they won’t go to Hell. Limbo of the Infants is considered, technically, to be Hell since the Beatific Vision is not present. There aren’t any tortures and every natural happiness is granted, but in TECHNICAL terms it is Hell.

It IS possible infants are in Limbo. The matter is open for discussion. You’re allowed to believe what you do, but we do NOT know they’re DEFINITELY not in Hell. It simply has not been revealed.

We must be very careful not to exaggerate the teaching either way.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Life begins at conception. I’m not sure who denied that.

NOBODY here is saying that anybody here is wrong when they say they believe unbaptized infants are in Heaven. You all may be right, and there is scriptural backing for your position.

But, we do NOT know that, and if somebody disagrees with you they are NOT necessarily wrong.

Church teaching is that they are entrusted to the mercy of God. Nothing more. The rest is speculation.

 

[Waiting]

Here’s my take on the subject of aborted babies and limbo. My nephew, a priest, agrees with me. When a baby dies before Baptism has been received, that soul meets the Loving Lord. That soul then is given a choice, as we all are, to choose to accept or reject Jesus. What innocent soul could look at the loving, compassionate face of Jesus and reject Him? That soul receives the Baptism of Desire and enters heaven.

My sister and I had made a pact many years ago to let the other know where we are when we die. Recently my sister passed away. I leaned over her bed in the hospital, shortly after her death, and reminded her about our pact. She had miscarried a baby years earlier. I asked her to tell me the gender of that miscarried baby, and I’d know she was in heaven. That night as I lay in bed, drifting off to sleep, I heard myself talking to someone, telling that person who met my sister as she entered heaven. The last words I heard were,"…and her two sons." Now my sister had lost an adult son previously, but now I was learning that she had been met by two sons. Clearly she was telling me that her miscarried child was a boy. Also, that boy was in heaven.

As for limbo, there was a need for limbo prior to the Ascension of Jesus. That need did not exist after heaven was reopened, so there is no longer a limbo for the unbaptized.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

As for limbo, there was a need for limbo prior to the Ascension of Jesus. That need did not exist after heaven was reopened, so there is no longer a limbo for the unbaptized.

We don’t know this for sure.

You can BELIEVE there isn’t one. But nobody KNOWS that.

I know we all want to believe the unbaptized infants are in Heaven, but the fact of the matter is that while there is good reason to believe they are in Heaven we do NOT know that. Believing in the Limbo of the Infants is 100% just as permissible as believing unbaptized infants are in Heaven.

 

[BevSchellen]

I often think about this question - in great depth - and I have finally come to a belief, that because Jesus said that there are many ‘rooms’ in His Father’s House, maybe one of those ‘rooms’ is reserved for unbaptized souls! It is only a simple thought, and some people might dismiss the idea completely - saying why should anyone be deprived of the Vision of God Almighty, and that this is then a punishment!

However, we must remember that:
(1) God is a Loving and Merciful God, and would not put them in a place of suffering, but of great happiness;
(2) Heaven is meant to be a place of ‘complete bliss’, therefore in some way we must not be ‘able’ to feel unhappiness of any kind! How we reach that state is unknown, but this must be so - logically speaking;
(3) Somewhere in the Bible, it says that when we reach Heaven, we will not see our loved ones (relatives, etc) as we see them here on earth - that there are no marriages, etc. - instead we will be so full of ‘happiness’, that we cannot be ‘unhappy’ about those who are still alive, and who may be suffering still! Maybe that is because we would be filled instead with Faith and Hope, and can pray incessantly for them! Also, because we would then know and understand God’s Plans and Ways, and we would be able to accept his Divine Will in All Things…!!!

Anyway, that is what I now think, and I believe that the Good Lord has blessed me with these thoughts - because I am now at great peace with the thought of these possibilities.

Praise God, and may He Bless you all out there abundantly! :aok:

 

[LilyM]

I find it difficult to wrap my head around the idea of Limbo not being torture. The souls there are separated from God. For all eternity.

God is the source of all joy and pleasure that exists, no? Even the ‘natural’ pleasure of which some posters have been speaking surely comes from God - although distorted and misused sometimes - and It makes no sense to me to think that any joy or pleasure - even those ‘natural’ examples - can exist for a soul eternally banished from His presence.

 

[melekali]

This comes from a good friend who was trained as a priest in Louvain back when that seminary existed and was the best one - limbo means “in the margin” and when the theologians were addressing the difficult question of what happens to the unbaptized baby if he dies & the theologians did not know the answer so they put it “iin the margin.” It is speculative and is not a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. See the reference to the Council of Florence above.

The question of the outcome of aborted babies is different than that question. They are unquestionably martyrs, but not of persecution of Christians as such but persecution of the right to be born, to exist. So this issue is not about Christians per se, but addresses God’s justice. I believe in His justice, aborted babies are taken back to God from whom they came. These are truly innocents in this sense.

 

[Ignatius]

Please tell me the aborted babied go to heaven.
Is there still a Limbo?

There never was a limbo. It is a theological hypothesis that was never accepted by The Church as Doctrine.
The Catechism says that, in reference to the unbaptized infants (including the aborted, “We trust them to the mercy of God.”
If you don’t have a catechism, I would strongly suggest that you get one so that you can know the authentic teachings of The Church. You can get one for $4.99 or less:
amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0385479670/ref=sr_1_1_np_1_main_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347815098&sr=1-1&condition=new

 

[Nimeniton]

The sin of dying in ‘original sin only’ is the actual mortal sin of omission of never having found sanctifying grace in this life (baptism by water, or desire, or blood) despite ample opportunity. Prenatals, infants and young children who die without baptism do not die in original sin only. (None of the definitions of doctrine on this topic say that they do.) They receive a baptism of blood, just like the Holy Innocents, and so they die in a state of grace and go to Heaven.

If prenatals who die in the womb went to Hell, then that would be tantamount to predestination to Hell, since no baptism of water is possible in the womb. Such a claim contradicts the Magisterial teaching on the universal salvific will of God.

According to CCC 1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. According to the catholic encyclopedia original sin is a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.

Original sin is inherited whereas mortal sin is a conscious act and that includes acts of ommission. Therefore, original sin and mortal sin including mortal sins of omission are not the same.

To die in original sin alone means to have no other sin than original sin on the soul.

Pope Eugenius is making a dogmatic definition in the council of Florence when he states that those who die in original sin alone go to hell.

Ron Conte claims that infants cannot die in a state of original sin because they receive a baptism of blood. This is not dogma but speculation. Also The proposals invoking some kind of Baptism of desire or Baptism of blood, however, involved certain difficulties says THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED

Does then the Council of Florence exclude infants from those who die with original sin alone. It would appear not. Eugenius is very concerned that the baptism of infants should not be delayed and the reason he gives for this is that they may be snatched from the realm of the devil i.e hell. As he is asking for humans to baptise them with water then he is not counting on a baptism of blood or desire to save them.

*With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God, it admonishes that sacred baptism is not to be deferred for forty or eighty days or any other period of time in accordance with the usage of some people, but it should be conferred as soon as it conveniently can; and if there is imminent danger of death, the child should be baptized straightaway without any delay, even by a lay man or a woman in the form of the church, if there is no priest, as is contained more fully in the decree on the Armenians.*council of florence

Not only can children be snatched by the devil but so also can aborted foetuses. Over a century later Pope Sixtus V makes it clear that abortion is wrong not just because it takes life but because the child loses its soul, Who will not detest such an abhorrent and evil act, by which are lost not only the bodies but also the souls?iteadjmj.com/aborto/eng-prn.html

It is quite clear , therefore that both these popes believed that unbaptised children went to hell. Neither said anything to indicate that they could be saved by baptism of desire or blood.Ron Conte , therefore, has not reconciled the contradiction. Original sin is not a mortal sin of omission and children are included in those who can die in a state of original sin alone and go to hell and further it is dogma…

 

[Sirach2]

Nimeniton,
Maybe I’m missing something, but what does your link to Effraenatam have to do with the eternal fate of the baby itself? It censures and rightly condemns those who partake in this heinous crime, but says nothing more.

The present teaching of the Church, as she has developed in her understanding of these innocents, is that we do not have Divine Revelation with respect to their eternal fate. We leave them to God’s mercy. Are you above the teaching of the Church to command that we teach according to an older theological speculation?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

…children are included in those who can die in a state of original sin alone and go to hell and further it is dogma…

If you mean that it is dogma that unbaptized infants CAN go to Hell, then yes.

If you’re saying it’s dogma that they WILL go to Hell, you are absolutely 100% totally, completely wrong.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

There never was a limbo. It is a theological hypothesis that was never accepted by The Church as Doctrine.

You’re right that it was never doctrine, but you’re still allowed to believe in the hypothesis.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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