What happened to the choir lofts?

[tee_eff_em]

We had a (now long demolished) Church here in Buffalo where the case pipes of the organ were behind the high altar on the sanctuary wall. I saw a picture once, it was quite striking, but poor Father when the organist pulled the 16 foot stop

My parish church (c. 1958) was built with what Wikipaedia tells me is a *retro-choir *or back choir, including the organ console and pipes behind the high altar (and a lattice work wall). I’ve always felt the acoustics quite satisfactory, and the choir cannot be seen except perhaps the tops of heads of the very tallest members.

When we moved here ~30 years ago, one Mass each weekend was served by a “contemporary choir” (aging hippies (not a disparagement, just a fact)), which would set up in the sanctuary on the altar right. :twocents: I could never understand why they did not use the same back choir space as the traditional choir, and apparently neither could a newly appointed pastor. He moved the president’s chair from between the altar left and ambo to the altar right. Now we use our whole, beautiful sanctuary at each Mass! (But the aging hippies decided they were too old to adjust to the change, and have disbanded)

:twocents:
tee

 

[Joe_5859]

I asked my pastor once why he didn’t build our new Church with a choir loft and he mentioned that Vatican II (or documents after Vatican II) called for designs where the lay choir sang from nave. So the choir seats are in the nave, off to the side, in place of where some pews would be.

According to him, the loft separates the lay choir from the rest of layity, which is one reason why many newer churches are being built with the choir sitting in the nave.

Not sure if there are documents regarding this, or if it was his (or someone’s) understanding the current documents; because our Cathedral uses the choir loft.

The only passages I can find that touch on this are from the Sacred Congregation of Rites.

Here is Inter Oecumenici (1965):

1. The choir and organ shall occupy a place clearly showing that the singers and the organist form part of the united community of the faithful and allowing them best to fulfill their part in the liturgy.

And Musicam Sacrum (1967):

1. Taking into account the layout of each church, the choir should be placed in such a way:

(a) That its nature should be clearly apparent-namely, that it is a part of the whole congregation, and that it fulfills a special role;

(b) That it is easier for it to fulfil its liturgical function;

(c) That each of its members may be able to participate easily in the Mass, that is to say by sacramental participation.

Whenever the choir also includes women, it should be placed outside the sanctuary (presbyterium).

I guess it depends on how you interpret that the choir is “clearly” seen as “part of the community”. It doesn’t specifically say that they must be in the nave nor that choir lofts cannot be used. But I can see how someone might choose to interpret it that way.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I imagine choir lofts are more expensive a design. Upkeep and maintenance of church buildings is expensive. I am actually attending a church with a prayer loft for the first time and I rather like the effect it gives the hymns.

 

[OraLabora]

Re: your third sentence, well, maybe not directly. But it seems about the same time people were now supposed to see the priest ****fa****ce ********to ************face ****at all times, the laity were also told they should **see **the choir face to face as well as hear them. And some churches were redesigned so as to tilt the pews an angle, so you are forced, during the Consecration, to ****see ****the specific family that lives 4 blocks away. Face to face.

The realistic **face **of Jesus on the Crucifix was found, ironically, to be distracting, so now less visible. Stations of the Cross now have stick figures.

So yeah, correlation does not prove causation, but a bunch of similar correlations do show a pattern.

Not really. A number of churches that I sing in still have choir lofts. One has choir stalls. The cathedral we sing in has both. The local monastery, as all monasteries I have visited, do not have a choir loft. The monks are the choir and they are in their stalls in the sanctuary.

Moreover in churches with choir stalls, the altar could either be at the end of the sanctuary, so everyone would be facing the altar, in between the sanctuary and the nave, with the priest facing the nave (face to people, back to those in choir), or in between the sanctuary and the nave, with the priest facing the choir but back to the faithful in the nave.

Much of it simply had to do with the architectural realities of the place.

Also in just about every choir loft I’ve sung in, there was also a pipe organ there. If I look back at this choir season, I think every church but one that we sang in had a choir loft, and we used it. The one that didn’t, also didn’t have a pipe organ, but has an electronic keyboard. It was a 1960s building, but still has altar rails, and the tabernacle on the altar, which is configured in a way that you could celebrate either facing away or towards the people (I hesitate to say “ad orientem” as the church is built on a north-south axis with the altar at the south end). In spite of its typical 1960s modern architecture, it’s actually my favourite church to sing in, because by quirk or by design, it happens to have fabulous acoustics.

So really I don’t think you can associate the direction of worship with the existence, or not, of choir lofts. The newest church we sing in occasionally, consecrated in 1987, happens to have a pipe organ and a choir loft, which we use.

The local Benedictine abbey of course as I mentioned doesn’t have one. It was consecrated in 1994 but follows the monastic pattern of choir stalls, and the pipe organ at main level. The “choir loft” is actually a jubé with pews.

Monastery church:

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