What happened to their souls?..and other questions

[bjd2006pc]

Hello,
As some of you know I am really interested in the RCC…I plan to convert soon…

I have been doing a lot of reading online. I have also been reading a lot of religious forums. But the anti-Catholic ideas of some people are so overwhelming and silly.

Questions for Prostestants and Catholics alike…

1. According to many anti-Catholics, the RCC is not Christian. If that is the case, then what happened to all the souls of people from the time of the Crucifixion to the Reformation? Some of the really ‘out there’ fundamentalists seem to think the Church started with Martin Luther.
   I know that 99 percent of the people on this forum are reasonable.I am just curious.
   
   Side note: My mom, who is devoutly Methodist, was talking with her coworker, who is devoutly Catholic. My mom told her friend that I was really interested in the faith. As soon as she said that, my mom’s boss came by and said that Catholics are not Christian. That ticked off both my mom and her friend…(BTW, my mom’s boss is Presbyterian. However, she admitted that she hasnt been to church in years…How easy for her to judge).
2. One of my former coworkers was a non-denominational minister. We always talked religion. However, one exchange troubled me. It still sticks with me after six months.
   He was adamant that ANYONE who did not have a personal relationship with Jesus was doomed to hell. I brought up the Holocaust. I asked him if the eight milliion Jews who were murdered were in heaven or hell. He told me, that unfortunately, they were in hell…That terrified me… Here I have my views that God would never do that to someone who has NEVER heard His word…Then this guy tells me that God would show no mercy…that really troubled me…I brought up that Jesus was Jewish, but he did not sway…

Question: How can a reasonable person think that? Is this common in amongst the non-denominational types. I was brought up Methodist…We believed that yes, people should know Christ, but we were the last ones that God would want to judge…Are there any exceptions?

1. Two nuns in my hometown have started a Catholic radio station…For now it has EWTN 24hrs…Soon they expect to add local programming. There was an article about the station in my local newspaper. According to the nuns, they tried to get spots on other Christian stations in my town, but were refused because they were Catholic. (I live in the high plains of TX)…Is this common nowadays? Even TBN shows Fulton Sheen (although at 3 in the morning)…
2. One final point: About radio…one night I was going up the dial on FM and came across a preacher…he was a local one. He said the single most dumbest thing I think I have ever heard in my 27 years on planet earth…All Saints are the work of Satan and people should not read or study them…WOW, where did this guy go to divinity school…
   I grew up Methodist…the church I attended was named after a saint…I am not even Catholic (yet), but I was VERY offended.

How can a rational thinking Christian have a discussion with someone so foolish?

Have any of you, Protestant or Catholic, been in a discussion with someone so ‘out there’ that you actually felt sorry for them? I mean you went home and prayed to God that they would use their God-given brains?

Just curious.

Joe

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I Cor 15:3-4

Simply list what Catholics and Protestants do have in common:

Trintiy
Jesus fully God fully Man
Death of Christ
Ressurrection
Salvation through Jesus Christ

Then list what is needed for salvation doctrine wise, hey it is the same list.

looks like catholics are christians to me.

 

[bjd2006pc]

I agree that Catholics are Christian…I wouldnt be considering joining the RCC if it wasn’t Christian…My point is that I am in the Bible Belt…Many, many people here have some strange ideas on what Catholics believe…And to hear some of the things mentioned in the local media, it is kind of distressing…To hear someone say that all saints are the products of Satan is a bit much if you ask me…But this is the kind of talk you hear among some circles…

Joe

 

[Della]

bjd2006pc:

Hello,
As some of you know I am really interested in the RCC…I plan to convert soon…

I have been doing a lot of reading online. I have also been reading a lot of religious forums. But the anti-Catholic ideas of some people are so overwhelming and silly.

Questions for Prostestants and Catholics alike…

1. According to many anti-Catholics, the RCC is not Christian. If that is the case, then what happened to all the souls of people from the time of the Crucifixion to the Reformation? Some of the really ‘out there’ fundamentalists seem to think the Church started with Martin Luther.
   I know that 99 percent of the people on this forum are reasonable.I am just curious.
   
   Side note: My mom, who is devoutly Methodist, was talking with her coworker, who is devoutly Catholic. My mom told her friend that I was really interested in the faith. As soon as she said that, my mom’s boss came by and said that Catholics are not Christian. That ticked off both my mom and her friend…(BTW, my mom’s boss is Presbyterian. However, she admitted that she hasnt been to church in years…How easy for her to judge).

Funny, isn’t it, how the latent faith of some people, especially the worst parts of it, come to the fore when someone says a loved one is becoming Catholic? It’s because such persons were deeply indoctrinated in anti-Catholicism. And, the enemy of our souls loves to kick up dust and make a fuss when people begin to take the Church seriously–Jesus warned us about it many times.

1. One of my former coworkers was a non-denominational minister. We always talked religion. However, one exchange troubled me. It still sticks with me after six months.
   He was adamant that ANYONE who did not have a personal relationship with Jesus was doomed to hell. I brought up the Holocaust. I asked him if the eight milliion Jews who were murdered were in heaven or hell. He told me, that unfortunately, they were in hell…That terrified me… Here I have my views that God would never do that to someone who has NEVER heard His word…Then this guy tells me that God would show no mercy…that really troubled me…I brought up that Jesus was Jewish, but he did not sway…

Question: How can a reasonable person think that? Is this common in amongst the non-denominational types. I was brought up Methodist…We believed that yes, people should know Christ, but we were the last ones that God would want to judge…Are there any exceptions?

A reasonable person can’t think that. This guy isn’t being reasonable, he is imposing his erroneous beliefs on others, actually thinking he is being merciful by believing and saying such things. The CCC deals with this topic here.

1. Two nuns in my hometown have started a Catholic radio station…For now it has EWTN 24hrs…Soon they expect to add local programming. There was an article about the station in my local newspaper. According to the nuns, they tried to get spots on other Christian stations in my town, but were refused because they were Catholic. (I live in the high plains of TX)…Is this common nowadays? Even TBN shows Fulton Sheen (although at 3 in the morning)…

That doesn’t surprise me at all. Those programming these Christian stations firmly believe that Catholicism is a cult of Satan. So, why would they give a Catholic program air time? It’s safe enough to run Fulton Sheen at 3 AM, though. They can always parse what he says on their own programs and make him say whatever they want.

1. One final point: About radio…one night I was going up the dial on FM and came across a preacher…he was a local one. He said the single most dumbest thing I think I have ever heard in my 27 years on planet earth…All Saints are the work of Satan and people should not read or study them…WOW, where did this guy go to divinity school…
   I grew up Methodist…the church I attended was named after a saint…I am not even Catholic (yet), but I was VERY offended.

How can a rational thinking Christian have a discussion with someone so foolish?

No, a rational, thinking Christian cannot have a discussion with someone who is so foolish. Besides, he wouldn’t be interested in any such discussion. He would do the equivalent of putting his hands over his ears and humming. Sad, isn’t it?

Have any of you, Protestant or Catholic, been in a discussion with someone so ‘out there’ that you actually felt sorry for them? I mean you went home and prayed to God that they would use their God-given brains?

Just curious.

Joe

I’m afraid so, and too many times to recall. Deliberate, willful ignorance is impossible to answer, so I don’t bother trying anymore.

 

[JimG]

Ah well, unfortunately religious doctrines can sometimes lead people to extreme ways of thinking. That part about all Jews being condemned to hell, for example. Or those who don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus. How about Muslims, who think he is only a prophet? How about those who have never heard of Jesus?

I think the key point is that, however God may reveal himself to mankind, it is for the benefit of mankind, not for the limitation of God. So we leave it up to the mercy of God to deal with others, while we try to follow His word and spread His word as best we can.

 

[Archbishop]

Does God owe salvation to the Jews who suffered in the Holocaust? Who is to say that many of those people had not at some time heard the good news about Jesus Christ but rejected it and thus rejected the opportunity for salvation?

The Holocaust was a terrible and horrific event in human history. But it does not change God’s plan of redemption for lost and fallen mankind - salvation through His one and only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

The Jews who died had the Old Testament, rich with its prophecies of the Messiah, rich with its forshadowings of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. Their’s was the covenant. But the stubbornness of their hearts had blinded them to Christ.

So while our emotions are moved to tears over the immense suffereing of a people and a nation at the hands of madmen, and while we do know that God is a God of mercy and compassion, God is also a God of justice who commands men and women everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel. If they do not, hell is their reward. We should not be ashamed to say this. The Bible says this.

Yes, God is the final judge regarding who is saved and who is not. But do not fall into the trap of letting human emotions become the determining factor of what God should do or not do.

Abp +Mark

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Archbishop:

Does God owe salvation to the Jews who suffered in the Holocaust? Who is to say that many of those people had not at some time heard the good news about Jesus Christ but rejected it and thus rejected the opportunity for salvation?

The Holocaust was a terrible and horrific event in human history. But it does not change God’s plan of redemption for lost and fallen mankind - salvation through His one and only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

The Jews who died had the Old Testament, rich with its prophecies of the Messiah, rich with its forshadowings of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. Their’s was the covenant. But the stubbornness of their hearts had blinded them to Christ.

So while our emotions are moved to tears over the immense suffereing of a people and a nation at the hands of madmen, and while we do know that God is a God of mercy and compassion, God is also a God of justice who commands men and women everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel. If they do not, hell is their reward. We should not be ashamed to say this. The Bible says this.

Yes, God is the final judge regarding who is saved and who is not. But do not fall into the trap of letting human emotions become the determining factor of what God should do or not do.

Abp +Mark

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church - Here’s what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation outside the Church - consistent with the Scriptures and 2000 years of Church history:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21L 3,1169; De unit.L 4,509-536.
336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
338 AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

God is a god of infinite justice. But He is also a God of infinite mercy. There seems to be reason for hope that God’s infinite mercy would allow those holocaust victims who were ignorant of the Gospel to attain salvation through Christ by another means. Persons in the midst of such suffering as that inflicted by the holocaust would -IMHO - have ample opportunity to attain the sincere heart which, moved by grace, seeks to do God’s will.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

JimG:

Ah well, unfortunately religious doctrines can sometimes lead people to extreme ways of thinking. That part about all Jews being condemned to hell, for example. Or those who don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus. …

:bigyikes:

All christians alike - Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or Protestant MUST have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This concept is not simply consistent with Catholic teaching - it is central to our faith and our prayer life. JimG, did you really mean to suggest that this notion was some sort of “extreme” way of thinking or am I just misreading your post?

 

[JimG]

All christians alike - Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or Protestant MUST have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This concept is not simply consistent with Catholic teaching - it is central to our faith and our prayer life. JimG, did you really mean to suggest that this notion was some sort of “extreme” way of thinking or am I just misreading your post?
[/quote]

No, I did not mean that Christians must not have a personal relationship with Jesus. You might say that they have that by reason of being Christians.

I was speaking of those who never knew Christ, or learned only falsehoods about Christ. Can they have a personal relationship with someone they do not know? Are they condemned to hell for not knowing?

Also, the term ‘personal relationship’ is rather subjective, when given as a criterion for avoiding hell and getting to heaven. It means different things to different people.

Catholics believe that if we die in a state of Grace–i.e., having the life of Christ within us, we are surely saved. Baptists, Methodists, Quakers, may have a different idea of what this phrase means. Does it mean I must have the same level of spirituality as Therese of Liseux? It would seem that receiving Him body and blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist is about as personal as you can get.

So yes, I agree that all Christians must have a personal relationship with Jesus. But I am wary of positing this as the one criteria for salvation, and saying that anyone who does not have it is going to hell.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

JimG:

No, I did not mean that Christians must not have a personal relationship with Jesus. You might say that they have that by reason of being Christians.

I was speaking of those who never knew Christ, or learned only falsehoods about Christ. Can they have a personal relationship with someone they do not know? Are they condemned to hell for not knowing?

Also, the term ‘personal relationship’ is rather subjective, when given as a criterion for avoiding hell and getting to heaven. It means different things to different people.

Catholics believe that if we die in a state of Grace–i.e., having the life of Christ within us, we are surely saved. Baptists, Methodists, Quakers, may have a different idea of what this phrase means. Does it mean I must have the same level of spirituality as Therese of Liseux? It would seem that receiving Him body and blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist is about as personal as you can get.

So yes, I agree that all Christians must have a personal relationship with Jesus. But I am wary of positing this as the one criteria for salvation, and saying that anyone who does not have it is going to hell.

I see. Thanks for the clarification.