What happens when someone dies in original sin and not mortal sin?

[SheepsCousin]

So the church teaches that people who die in original and mortal sin go to hell and that they have dissimilar punishments. However what does that mean? Are babies in the category of people in original sin? Does this mean if you die in original sin you go to Limbo?

 

[Mythicalbio]

As the Church hasn’t dogmatized limbo, this is not the necessary conclusion. In my opinion, those who do this are considered guilty of sins of omission for not having found the state of grace in life despite ample opportunity. They are punished by a deprivation of the beatific vision and communion of saints. There is no pain physically for them though, although it is miserable. I do not think there is any natural happiness for them, it is hell. Just less punishment than the rest. Whatever true conclusion there is though, it is not necessarily limbo.

 

[Gorgias]

So the church teaches that people who die in original and mortal sin go to hell and that they have dissimilar punishments. However what does that mean? Are babies in the category of people in original sin?

The Church says “we don’t have any divine revelation that answers that question for us. One may believe in a state that’s not quite heaven (for infants who die without baptism), but we believe and trust in God’s mercy to gather these children to Him in heaven.”

There is no pain physically for them though, although it is miserable. I do not think there is any natural happiness for them, it is hell.

Actually, the theological opinion of “Limbo” generally says that it’s not “hell”, it’s a “natural happiness” that is somehow short of the Beatific Vision.

 

[TheLittleLady]

We trust them to the mercy of God

 

[Vico]

So the church teaches that people who die in original and mortal sin go to hell and that they have dissimilar punishments. However what does that mean? Are babies in the category of people in original sin? Does this mean if you die in original sin you go to Limbo?

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, page 113-114:

§ 25. Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)

The 2nd General Council of Lyons (1274) and the Council of Florence (1438-45) declared: illorum animas, qui in actuali mortali peccato vel solo originali decedunt, max in infernum descendere, poenis tamen disparibus puniendas (the souls of those who die in original sin as well as those who die in actual mortal sin go immediately into hell, but their punishment is very different).
D 464, 693.

The dogma is supported by the words of Our Lord: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God " (John 3, 5).
…
In the punishment of Hell theologians distinguish between the “poena damni,” which consists in the exclusion from the Beatific Vision of God, and the “poena sensus” which is caused by external means, and which will be felt by the senses even after the resurrection of the body.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism , the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

64 Mk 10 14; cf. 1 Tim 2:4.

 

[BornInMarch]

Being “in original sin” only means being unbaptized. The catechism says unbaptized adults who never got a chance to become Christian can go to Heaven if they lived virtuous lives regardless, and that God loves babies even if they aren’t baptized. Likewise the most recent Popes have all expressed the belief that unbaptized babies go to Heaven.

 

[otjm]

The dogma is supported by the words of Our Lord: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God " (John 3, 5).

The focus of the dogmatic statement, as noted, is from the Gospel of John.

And so we are bound to baptize - babies, children, adults, people near death… and the Church holds that we are not to willy nilly go sprinkling everyone an saying words; beyond babies, there is an issue of acceptance by the individual of baptism.

However, that conversation has not stopped there; it has been confronted in this last century (if not before) by two issues. 1) God is merciful. When a child cannot be baptized (infants, so we are not spilling over into personal choice to sin), how and why would holding this against the infant be merciful?

1. Over the last century (if not before) there also have been another issue: we are bound to follow the law; but God in not bound. God can do what God perceives as both just and merciful, and so God does not of necessity require baptism.

 

[AlNg]

The dogma is supported by the words of Our Lord: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God "

It seems though that this dogma has changed. At one time it was taught that
(the souls of those who die in original sin as well as those who die in actual mortal sin go immediately into hell, but their punishment is very different),
but is this dogma still taught today?

 

[Theosis]

With Cajun, we ought to trust in God’s supreme and infinite love, mercy and goodness.

A few things to reflect, pray and trust in:

“Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these” (Matt 19:14)

“The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of Blood, like desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament” (CCC 1258).

“‘Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.’ Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity” (CCC 1260)

“As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,’ allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism” (CCC 1261)

Faith, Hope, and do not worry. St. Padre Pio

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The dogma is supported by the words of Our Lord: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God " (John 3, 5).

The focus of the dogmatic statement, as noted, is from the Gospel of John.

And so we are bound to baptize - babies, children, adults, people near death… and the Church holds that we are not to willy nilly go sprinkling everyone an saying words; beyond babies, there is an issue of acceptance by the individual of baptism.

However, that conversation has not stopped there; it has been confronted in this last century (if not before) by two issues. 1) God is merciful. When a child cannot be baptized (infants, so we are not spilling over into personal choice to sin), how and why would holding this against the infant be merciful?

1. Over the last century (if not before) there also have been another issue: we are bound to follow the law; but God in not bound. God can do what God perceives as both just and merciful, and so God does not of necessity require baptism.

There is the sacrament of baptism (of water) and then there are the non-sacramental baptisms of blood and desire. One can read in the canons of the Council of Trent about baptism of desire.

The Beatific Vision is beyond what is purely natural so requires grace. Merit is required for the Beatific Vision. Only a person in the state of grace can merit. It is not known with certainty how the un-baptised infant that dies, can obtain grace – therefore the Church expresses hope. The Limbo of Infants was specifically proposed to account for those that did not merit the Beatific Vision nor demerit the pains of hell.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The dogma is supported by the words of Our Lord: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God "

It seems though that this dogma has changed. At one time it was taught that
(the souls of those who die in original sin as well as those who die in actual mortal sin go immediately into hell, but their punishment is very different),
but is this dogma still taught today?

Yes. The punishment varies, so it can mean a natural peace, because not having the gift of the Beatific Vision is thought of as a punishment, however consider that such vision is a gift.

“The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be performed meritoriously” (II Council of Orange, Denzinger 388).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Likewise the most recent Popes have all expressed the belief that unbaptized babies go to Heaven.

Please provide links to actual sources if you’re going to make this claim, which I believe you’ve now stated on two threads. Popes generally do not go around saying people “go to Heaven” except for canonized saints.

The Church teaches that we may have HOPE that unbaptized babies go to Heaven. It does not teach that they definitely go.

 

[ioannes_pius]

 

[otjm]

The Beatific Vision is beyond what is purely natural so requires grace. Merit is required for the Beatific Vision. Only a person in the state of grace can merit. It is not known with certainty how the un-baptised infant that dies, can obtain grace – therefore the Church expresses hope . The Limbo of Infants was specifically proposed to account for those that did not merit the Beatific Vision nor demerit the pains of hell.

Yep. I was not proposing that they get a free ticket; simply commenting on how the more recent thoughts on the matter came about.

Thanks for your explication.

 

[Vico]

…
Yep. I was not proposing that they get a free ticket; simply commenting on how the more recent thoughts on the matter came about.

Thanks for your explication.

You are welcome. The recent thoughts seem to be the same as the ancient, for example St. Gregory of Nazianzus (329-390 A.D.):

… the statement of St. Gregory of Nazianzus may be taken as representative:

It will happen, I believe . . . that those last mentioned [infants dying without baptism] will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked. . . . For from the fact that one does not merit punishment it does not follow that one is worthy of being honored, any more than it follows that one who is not worthy of a certain honor deserves on that account to be punished. [Oration 40, no. 23]

Toner, P. (1910). Limbo. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

 

[Bill1]

Hello I am Bill. I want to remind you since you know the teaching of the church, that When Adam and Eve first brought sin a pone themselves and mankind with that “Original Sin”, Or Father being a “God of Order” sent his son Jesus to this earth so that he could fulfill the law. And the law was what the Profits Prophesied from Our Father, Starting with The Commandments. Teaching man of Gods will. That a Savor was to come and free them of there plight. To free them from sin. Jesus came one day and said to the people in his synagogue "Behold the Son of God is suddenly a pone you. The Law is fulfilled. He died on the cross for the “Original Sin” and took a pone himself the sins of the world. He was the “Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world” When you speak of Mortal Sins, Be carful let Jesus take care of the judgments. But Know What Is A Mortal Sin is. Confess it in confession . Be honest about your life. If you are keeping back a sin our father knows it. He knows your heart. Babies are not born in sin. Neither are you. But the world is sinful. And we sin. Jesus is there for you. Just you and every one who comes to him in faith and reconciliation. Limbo? Talk to your priest about that. He is taught to know allot about that and ask him what constitutes a mortal sin. Don’t worry about where you will go after death. Be of good will and live in concert with The Holy Trinity. May God Bless you, Amen.

 

[JanR]

I have always felt that unbaptized babies who die in infancy are innocents. They cannot decide to not be baptized. I think God’s love provides a dispensation for them. To spend eternity in Limbo (which was described to me as a kid as being somewhat of a nowhere land) seems incompatible with God’s perfect love.

We can’t be certain, of course, but I just can’t see little babies anywhere but in Heaven.

But then, what do I know?