What Happens Where More Than One Vernacular?

[DL82]

e.g. my local church has mass in English, followed by mass in French for the many French-speaking Africans who live near-by, followed by mass in Spanish. If the Latin Mass was said, all these people could attend and worship together. I think it’s sad that I never meet half of my own congregation, or only meet them on the way out of church.

What happens in parts of Africa or South-East Asia where only a tiny number of people speak the particular language of that part of the world? Do they say mass in the ‘official’ language of the country, i.e. the language of its’ historical colonial over-lords, English or French, or do they have a cobbled-together missal in their own tribal language? Surely those kinds of situations call for the use of Latin?

 

[maurin]

e.g. my local church has mass in English, followed by mass in French for the many French-speaking Africans who live near-by, followed by mass in Spanish. If the Latin Mass was said, all these people could attend and worship together. I think it’s sad that I never meet half of my own congregation, or only meet them on the way out of church.

What happens in parts of Africa or South-East Asia where only a tiny number of people speak the particular language of that part of the world? Do they say mass in the ‘official’ language of the country, i.e. the language of its’ historical colonial over-lords, English or French, or do they have a cobbled-together missal in their own tribal language? Surely those kinds of situations call for the use of Latin?

I think the key to your post is “I think it’s sad that I never meet half of my own congregation…” and there is a lot of truth in that! When i lived in Texas the Parish was split between the Mexican congregation and the “Anglo” congregation (their own word, if you can believe it), and the split went so far that there were separate classes for both groups.

I agree that if the Universal Church’s Universal Prayers were in its Universal Language sad divisions such as this may not be eliminated, but certainly lessened!

Of course, the Lesson, the Gospel and the Homily would still be in the vernacular, but that could be done in two or three languages if all had Christ’s patience.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

e.g. my local church has mass in English, followed by mass in French for the many French-speaking Africans who live near-by, followed by mass in Spanish. If the Latin Mass was said, all these people could attend and worship together. I think it’s sad that I never meet half of my own congregation, or only meet them on the way out of church.

So rather than having Mass in the languages that people understand and can participate in you would rather have no one understand what is being said?

Yes, I know they have Missals that have the Latin Mass in Latin on one page and another Language on the other but reading such a thing is not exactly the same thing as knowing the language being spoken.

Can these people speak a language you know? I think this is a setting where the pastor must do some work. How about a bi-lingual Mass? We have this here in Houston. When the pastor got here it was as you say, two parishes in one building, one Spanish and one English. Now he has integrated them with the use of bi-lingual Masses and other activities outside of the Mass.

What happens in parts of Africa or South-East Asia where only a tiny number of people speak the particular language of that part of the world? Do they say mass in the ‘official’ language of the country, i.e. the language of its’ historical colonial over-lords, English or French, or do they have a cobbled-together missal in their own tribal language? Surely those kinds of situations call for the use of Latin?

I am for the use of the vernacular. If there is a push to return to Latin then there needs to be a huge education program to teach the laity Latin.

 

[Brendan]

Pope Benedict summed it up nicely in Sacramentum Charitas

I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, which nowadays are held with greater frequency. The most should be made of these occasions. In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, (182) that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, such liturgies could be celebrated in Latin.

That is where I learned the Latin Mass actually. When the Pauline Mass first came out, the parish my father grew up going to was half Hispanic, Half Irish. The priest simply changed from saying the Tridentine Mass to saying the Pauline Mass in Latin, so his whole congregation could continue to worship together. So when we we to Mass with grandma, (which was rather frequently) we heard the Mass in Latin.

And yes, Byzcath, I understood it enough as a boy, just as my children understand it now.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

And yes, Byzcath, I understood it enough as a boy, just as my children understand it now.

Which is great! I am sure you learned it and you have taught it. That is all I am asking for.

If you read what the pope said, he is talking about international gatherings not exactly what the OP is talking about.

The pope has also said that use of the vernacular is a good thing.

 

[BobP123]

I was told that during World War II, even people of opposite sides (Germans, Poles, French, Britains) dropped their weapons and went to Mass together. Nowadays, people within the same parish can’t go to the same Mass because of their vernacular preferences. It is sad indeed.

 

[maurin]

If you read what the pope said, he is talking about international gatherings not exactly what the OP is talking about.

I disagree, I think that what the OP is talking about is exactly what the Pope was talking about when he said “international gatherings.”

 

[Orogeny]

e.g. my local church has mass in English, followed by mass in French for the many French-speaking Africans who live near-by, followed by mass in Spanish. If the Latin Mass was said, all these people could attend and worship together. I think it’s sad that I never meet half of my own congregation, or only meet them on the way out of church.

So, what prevents you from attending a Mass in a different language and meeting your fellow congregation?

Peace

Tim

 

[Brendan]

Which is great! I am sure you learned it and you have taught it. That is all I am asking for.

Please note, though, that I LEARNED the Latin by attending a Latin Mass.

If you read what the pope said, he is talking about international gatherings not exactly what the OP is talking about.

The pope has also said that use of the vernacular is a good thing.

No, that is exactly what the Pope is talking about. International gatherings, which is what a multi-national congregation is, by definition.

 

[BobP123]

So, what prevents you from attending a Mass in a different language and meeting your fellow congregation?

Peace

Tim

Yep, Latin it is!!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I disagree, I think that what the OP is talking about is exactly what the Pope was talking about when he said “international gatherings.”

An international gathering is not people of the same country who speak different languages. By definition an international gathering is people from different nations gathering together. This would not be an every day occurrence at a parish.

 

[BobP123]

The pope has also said that use of the vernacular is a good thing.

When discussing these types of issues on a message board, definitely.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Please note, though, that I LEARNED the Latin by attending a Latin Mass.

Good but then you do not really know Latin, you just know the Mass in Latin. Not exactly the same thing but it works.

But please be aware, not everyone will be like you.

No, that is exactly what the Pope is talking about. International gatherings, which is what a multi-national congregation is, by definition.

Again, no. This is in a parish setting, the pope was not speaking of parishes, he was speaking of international gatherings. If he meant multi-national congregations I believe he would have said that. Also some countries have multiple languages so it is very possible to have citizens of the same country who speak different languages.

 

[maurin]

An international gathering is not people of the same country who speak different languages. By definition an international gathering is people from different nations gathering together. This would not be an every day occurrence at a parish.

then you haven’t spent much time in East Texas or South Florida, then.

 

[BobP123]

I am for the use of the vernacular.

Exactly what Martin Luther said.

 

[Uxor]

Exactly what Martin Luther said.

Didn’t Luther also press for ecclesiastical relations?

 

[BobP123]

Didn’t Luther also press for ecclesiastical relations?

About 97 of them, I think.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Exactly what Martin Luther said.

Pope Benedict XVI called the vernacular Mass “helpful” to the people. You still keep fumbling about with that genesis fallacy.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Didn’t Luther also press for ecclesiastical relations?

What are “ecclesiastical relations?”

 

[timjp77]

So, what prevents you from attending a Mass in a different language and meeting your fellow congregation?

Peace

Tim

That would be fine if the only reason I was attending Mass was to meet my fellow congregants. But I attend Mass to worship Our Lord and if a universal language was used, I could attend Mass anywhere in the world and worship right along with everyone else attending.

I attend a TLM now. I recently found some TLM videos on youtube.com. One was in Paris and the other was in Poland. I knew exactly what was going on and could follow everything in both Masses because of the universality of the TLM.