WHAT?! How did this happen?!

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Rand_Al_Thor

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Peace be with you!

**ELYRIA, Ohio (AP) – A woman accused of stabbing her newborn son and dumping the body in a flooded quarry, weighed down by a duffel bag full of rocks, was sentenced Wednesday to six years in prison.
**
cnn.com/2006/LAW/02/08/infant.slain.ap/index.html

This woman recieved only 6 years in prison on a chanrge of INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER. What was involuntary about beating and stabbing a baby and then throwing it in a quarry??? Manslaughter? That is first degree murder!!! This is an outrage!!!

In Christ,
Rand
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Peace be with you!

**ELYRIA, Ohio (AP) – A woman accused of stabbing her newborn son and dumping the body in a flooded quarry, weighed down by a duffel bag full of rocks, was sentenced Wednesday to six years in prison.
**
cnn.com/2006/LAW/02/08/infant.slain.ap/index.html

This woman recieved only 6 years in prison on a chanrge of INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER. What was involuntary about beating and stabbing a baby and then throwing it in a quarry??? Manslaughter? That is first degree murder!!! This is an outrage!!!

In Christ,
Rand
Perhaps it would not look so lopsided if you knew more facts of the case. Did the DA have enough evidence to obtain a conviction? Were there any issues which could mitigate, in terms of law? Were there witnesses who had disappeared, or over time forgotten facts, or no longer remembered facts as originally reproted? Were there circumstances which might sway a jury to bring a not guilty verdict?

It is altogether too easy to Monday morning quaterback a case with too few facts with which to make an informed decision as to the justice of the senatnace, and the justice of the verdict. The paper rarely prints enough facts to even understand the circumstances surrounding the original case, let alone the disposition.

It is entirely possible that there were facts sufficient to say that the DA got more than he should have, or that it was a very just decision. Without more, you are simply taking pot shots without even knowing if you have a target.
 
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otm:
Perhaps it would not look so lopsided if you knew more facts of the case. Did the DA have enough evidence to obtain a conviction? Were there any issues which could mitigate, in terms of law? Were there witnesses who had disappeared, or over time forgotten facts, or no longer remembered facts as originally reproted? Were there circumstances which might sway a jury to bring a not guilty verdict?

It is altogether too easy to Monday morning quaterback a case with too few facts with which to make an informed decision as to the justice of the senatnace, and the justice of the verdict. The paper rarely prints enough facts to even understand the circumstances surrounding the original case, let alone the disposition.

It is entirely possible that there were facts sufficient to say that the DA got more than he should have, or that it was a very just decision. Without more, you are simply taking pot shots without even knowing if you have a target.
Peace be with you!

She plead guilty. That means that she admitted that she did it. What she plead guilty to was involuntary manslaughter. That means that she killed the baby, but that she didn’t mean to or that it was an accident. Or at least that she took part in the killing. But look at the facts, though: the baby had been beaten, stabbed, and thrown in a quary. That is not an accident; that is not involuntary manslaughter. That is aggrivated murder which carries a minimun sentance of 25 years-life. Even if she had only been beating her child and it died, I would still be hesitant to only give a manslaughter charge. But she didn’t just beat the baby and then it “accidentally died”–she STABBED it after beating it. And then threw the body in a quary and covered it up for seven years. Most states also have a higher sentance if the child is under a certain age.

Once again, she plead guilty, which means she admits that she killed her baby. How is that taking pop shots? You shouldn’t defend murderers.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Rand Al'Thor:

Once again, she plead guilty, which means she admits that she killed her baby. How is that taking pop shots? You shouldn’t defend murderers.
It’s not so much “defending the murderer” but not jumping to conclusions. I’ll admit it does sound pretty bad.

Some points that aren’t brought up in these posts…She was 15 at the time and is now 22. She was pregnant with her then boyfriends baby and hid it from her family. Perhaps they were charging her as a minor (since she was at the time of the crime)? Perhaps there was insanity? Harsh home environment? Perhaps her boyfriend pushed her into the crime, but there was only hearsay and she took the blame?

Still playing devils advocate…since girls nowadays are allowed to just wander to the nearest clinic to “fix the problem”, what was so wrong about fixing it after the child was born? 😦

All Otm is saying is to not be hasty to judge (although this is a hard one for me at times) there might be more we don’t know
 
Infanticide due to Post Natal Depression is not all that uncommon. It’s not an excuse but it is a mitigation in law and results in the case being bought for Involuntary Manslaughter. Reading between the lines of her age, her background, her home life and the fact that she obviously feels remorse; otherwise why plead guilty, I would respectfully suggest that it should be a case of:

“There but for the Grace of God go I”

rather than a blanket condemnation.
 
From what I understand (and I haven’t been watching the news closely, but it’s a huge story around here) she didn’t just “beat” the baby, she bashed it over the head after stabbing it.

Accident my foot. I don’t care if she feels remorse or not, she can feel all the remorse she wants sitting in prison! This is just sickening.

What is even more sickening is the boyfriend only got a few years. I heard on TV that he would jump on her stomach when she was PG to try and kill the baby. Sicko. Anybody who is that sick needs to be locked away from society. :mad:

This whole thing makes me sick. It’s like people said who called into the local news station this morning…DRUG DEALERS get 25 years for selling drugs, but a mother stabs her newborn and beats it over the head and only gets 6 years? What is wrong with us?
 
Rand Al'Thor:
She plead guilty. That means that she admitted that she did it. What she plead guilty to was involuntary manslaughter. That means that she killed the baby, but that she didn’t mean to or that it was an accident.
It’s called a plea bargain. It happens all the time in order to save courts time and money.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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mlchance:
It’s called a plea bargain. It happens all the time in order to save courts time and money.

– Mark L. Chance.
I was about to write the same point, but you beat me to it Mark. There is more to plea bargains than just time and money. This is an old case and it would likely be difficult to prosecute (without a guilty plea). The prosecutor likely took what they felt they could get and I don’t question such legal decisions.

We must keep in mind that we do not have a justice system, only a legal system. Only God can administer true justice.

Nohome
 
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Nohome:
I was about to write the same point, but you beat me to it Mark. There is more to plea bargains than just time and money. This is an old case and it would likely be difficult to prosecute (without a guilty plea). The prosecutor likely took what they felt they could get and I don’t question such legal decisions.

We must keep in mind that we do not have a justice system, only a legal system. Only God can administer true justice.

Nohome
I don’t think this had much to do with a plea bargain. We had a case here about 8 years ago where a teenage girl killed her newborn. She plead guilty and went through trial. I think she only got 8 years, and if I remember right part of that sentence was suspended.

Apparently our court system blurs the line between an abortion and infantcide.
 
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mlchance:
It’s called a plea bargain. It happens all the time in order to save courts time and money.

– Mark L. Chance.
Peace be with you!

My point is that if you’re really innocent, you will plead innocent. I don’t care how much time and money it would spend, I would NEVER plead guilty to a murder I did not commit.

In Christ,
Rand
 
my husband and I have served on juries in Ohio on criminal cases, once a drunk driving case where one person was killed and one maimed for life, one a murder for hire case that made national news in its day, one a man who shot his wife who came home late because he allegedly thought she was a prowler. in all three cases the verdicts the verdicts given were for guilty of a lesser crime than the original charge, and in all 3 cases the verdicts received a huge amount of criticism in the press. In all 3 cases there were substantive facts the jury was not allowed to hear due to defense motions.

In all 3 cases if we had known as jurors what we later learned in the press, the verdicts may have been different. Also in all 3 cases the punishment actually received was less even that that contained in the original sentence, and that is not the jury’s fault.
 
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puzzleannie:
my husband and I have served on juries in Ohio on criminal cases, once a drunk driving case where one person was killed and one maimed for life, one a murder for hire case that made national news in its day, one a man who shot his wife who came home late because he allegedly thought she was a prowler. in all three cases the verdicts the verdicts given were for guilty of a lesser crime than the original charge, and in all 3 cases the verdicts received a huge amount of criticism in the press. In all 3 cases there were substantive facts the jury was not allowed to hear due to defense motions.

In all 3 cases if we had known as jurors what we later learned in the press, the verdicts may have been different. Also in all 3 cases the punishment actually received was less even that that contained in the original sentence, and that is not the jury’s fault.
Nor is it necessarily the fault of the courts or the DA or the defense attorney.

There is this funny little document we call a Constitution. It is designed to bring a balance between the rights of indiviudals and the rights of society. We can argue all day and half the night over what is fair, or right, or just. Most of the arguements are made by people with little understanding of the laws that are at play.

Unless the judge was wrong in applying the law, he properly excluded evidence which was either obtained in violation of certain Cobnstitutional rights, or was excluded for other legal precedential reasons.

One only has to be innocent and face the power of the State, as exercised by its police, to understand that there are reasons for checks and balances.

I will make no argument that every evidentiary rule is right, or even proper. I will say that those who are quickest to scream foul over an excluded piece of evidence (and I am not assuming you are, puzzleannie) would be the quickest to scream foul if they were caught up by the law and that rule was not available to them.

It may be that the judge was making incorrect decisions (as opposed to unpopulr ones); that is generally remedied one of two ways: by appeal to a higher court, or by the ballot box in his next election.

There is an old saying: hard cases make bad law. it has a wide sweep when discussing law, particularly evidentiary law.

Have you ever been questioned by a police officer when, either for a good reason or no reason at all, you were a suspect, but had done nothing? You only have to go through that once to realize the tremendous, and truly frightening power the State holds. Innocent until proven guilty? Not with the police; if they suspect you, you are guilty until you prove innocense. How good is your memory? How good are you at answering the question that was actually asked, and not the one you think was asked?
 
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Nohome:
I was about to write the same point, but you beat me to it Mark. There is more to plea bargains than just time and money. This is an old case and it would likely be difficult to prosecute (without a guilty plea). The prosecutor likely took what they felt they could get and I don’t question such legal decisions.

We must keep in mind that we do not have a justice system, only a legal system. Only God can administer true justice.

Nohome
In every case the DA brings, they have to weigh a number of issues: is the evidence solid? Is there a case of sympathy running through it for the accused? Are there resources available to prosecute? Does it make sense to prosecute for a higher crime if there is reasonable belief that a lesser charge will be the verdict? Is it best uses of available resources? (Hint: anyone want to pay more taxes? If you really do, the law allows you to pay more; you are not required to pay the minimum due…) Are witnesses available, and will they testify or are they hostile? Is there a viable defense which would most likely result in a reduced verdict or possibly an acquittal? Is there a risk, with the limited number of judges available, deputy DA’s available, etc., that pushing more cases to trial will result in such a backlog that the Constitutional right to a speedy trial will result in charges being dismissed in a number of cases?

Pleading cases to lesser charges makes a lot of people mad. It is, however, about the only thing almost any DA’s office has to resolve the constant running backlog of cases. They will pick and choose which crimes they prosecute because there is simply not enough time or money to try them all. Even the serious cases will be looked at in terms of a weighing and balancing.

Justice is an ideal, a goal to strive for. Too often what is achieved is not viewed as justice, but rather a miscarriage of justice. But unless and until our system of justice has all the judges, all the juries (have you served when called, or did you, the reader, use an excuse to get out of it?), all the DA’s, all the defense attorneys, all the police, all the backup staff and all the money it needs to prosecute each and every crime, and then all the jail space to house all the convicted, what has been related in this thread will continue.

If you the reader have a better idea, many, if not most of the participants in the justice system would like to hear it.
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Peace be with you!

My point is that if you’re really innocent, you will plead innocent. I don’t care how much time and money it would spend, I would NEVER plead guilty to a murder I did not commit.

In Christ,
Rand
Then you have never been an innocent individual caught up in a crime not of your making, but charged with it. You have never had tol look at a jury and pray that they will really do what they take an oath to do.

You might very easily plead guilty to a lesser crime if you were faced with seriously incriminating evidence and facing a seriously long piece of jail time.

and if you have never served on a jury, I hope that you will do so if given the chance. If for no other reason, it just might scare the living bejabers out of you to find out what your fellow citizen of the jury will do in terms of making a decision. It can be one of the most terrifying experiences in civil society you will ever receive.

If you think that a jury will do what they take an oath to - listen to all the evidence without making a decision before it is all in, put aside all prejudice, listen carefully with an open and unbiased mind, deliberate with all due seriousness and arrive at a fair and just decision, then buddy, have I got news for you. I have a bridge I’d like to sell you down in Arizona, and I’ll even through in a discounted 100 feet of beachfront property.

Have you ever heard the statement out of anyone: “Well, they must be guilty; the police arrested them, didn’t they?”

I have heard that statement so many times I long ago lost count. And I have heard it from people whom, prior to that statement, I felt were reasonably intelligent.
 
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otm:
Then you have never been an innocent individual caught up in a crime not of your making, but charged with it. You have never had tol look at a jury and pray that they will really do what they take an oath to do.

You might very easily plead guilty to a lesser crime if you were faced with seriously incriminating evidence and facing a seriously long piece of jail time.

and if you have never served on a jury, I hope that you will do so if given the chance. If for no other reason, it just might scare the living bejabers out of you to find out what your fellow citizen of the jury will do in terms of making a decision. It can be one of the most terrifying experiences in civil society you will ever receive.

If you think that a jury will do what they take an oath to - listen to all the evidence without making a decision before it is all in, put aside all prejudice, listen carefully with an open and unbiased mind, deliberate with all due seriousness and arrive at a fair and just decision, then buddy, have I got news for you. I have a bridge I’d like to sell you down in Arizona, and I’ll even through in a discounted 100 feet of beachfront property.

Have you ever heard the statement out of anyone: “Well, they must be guilty; the police arrested them, didn’t they?”

I have heard that statement so many times I long ago lost count. And I have heard it from people whom, prior to that statement, I felt were reasonably intelligent.
Peace be with you!

I was called for jury duty once (when I was 18) but they didn’t need most of us that day, so we were sent home.

This woman beat and stabbed an infant to death, threw the body in a quary, and covered it up for 7 years. Then she admitted that she did it. And you jump to her defense “well, we don’t know WHY she did it!” It doesn’t matter why she did it. She murdered her own child. It is impossible for it to have been an accident based on how the child was killed.

And before anyone else comes in to give me “pointers” on the law: I work at a law office, my uncle is a lawyer and used to do criminal law, and I’m going to apply to the Police department probably within the next year. I do know how the law works. Read my previous paragraph again, slowly. Think about exactly what this woman did to her child and then think about why you are defending her. Whether it was an “accident” (b.s.) or not, she meant to inflict harm upon an infant.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Of course, this has been BIG news here in the NE Ohio area.
The woman who got the 6 years cried as she heard her sentence since she already knew she was going to have jail time. (the audio have been played a lot here).

I am outraged to think that a baby is killed outside of the body and the woman got 6 years. Abortionists do not recieve ANY jail time. Yet when a older child or adult gets live in jail or the death penalty.

Justice on earth certainly is unbalanced.

It is suspect that another case, not a murder but an abuse case, may shake up this area as well.

The other case you may have ehard is the one about the Foster Parents keeping their 11 foster children in ‘cages’. I am afraid of the outcome of this case as well.
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Peace be with you!

I was called for jury duty once (when I was 18) but they didn’t need most of us that day, so we were sent home.

This woman beat and stabbed an infant to death, threw the body in a quary, and covered it up for 7 years. Then she admitted that she did it. And you jump to her defense “well, we don’t know WHY she did it!” It doesn’t matter why she did it. She murdered her own child. It is impossible for it to have been an accident based on how the child was killed.
No, I did not jump to her defense. I tried to explain to you why the results may have occured as they did. You are the one upset about the disparity between the act and the charge, and between the act and the sentance. You seem to want perfect justice, and I have no bone to pick with your desire. I am simply trying to show you some of the practical, real world problems in the justice system.
Rand Al'Thor:
And before anyone else comes in to give me “pointers” on the law: I work at a law office, my uncle is a lawyer and used to do criminal law, and I’m going to apply to the Police department probably within the next year. I do know how the law works. Read my previous paragraph again, slowly. Think about exactly what this woman did to her child and then think about why you are defending her. Whether it was an “accident” (b.s.) or not, she meant to inflict harm upon an infant.
And I would suggest that you re- read my posts. Nowhere did I suggest it was an accident.

If you want to be a police officer, that’s fine by me, as we always need good, honest police. But if you have a major problem in how the justice system worked in this case, you will either need a good healthy course in reality therapy, or a different vocation. I am not trying to snow you under with my expertise in the justice system; I am just trying to show you how the system actually works. If that is not acceptable to you, then for all of our sakes, don’t become a police officer. I have already had my fill of police officers who got fed up with the system, and because they could not make a case against people they “knew” were guilty, they manufactured evidence against them. Why? They got frustrated with the realities of the justice system and all its imperfections.

If you can’t deal with the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Again, I invite you to re-read my posts. You do not know all of the facts of the case, but only those the newspaper chose to write about. You are making judgements concerning facts of the case of which you do not know, and you are effectively passing judgement on the DA’s office and the judge in this case without being privy to what actually went on. She well may have had a partial mental defense. And if not, there may well have been other evidentiary issues with the case that would cause good, honest, hard working justice seeking attorneys and judges to come to the same conclusion.

It is a rare circumstance that an individual is convicted of all of the possible crimes that could be associated with a course of conduct, and it is a fact of life that plea bargaining is going to occur. If you believe that results in injustice, then you do not belong in the crimninal justice system; you won’t be able to take it and your role in it. You will have too much frustration to find pleasure and satisfaction in what you do.

I am not suggesting the system of justice has no room for improvement. I am suggesting that instead of complaining about the injustice of this case, you either suggest a better system, or start donating (a lot, if you want meaningful impact) to the justice system.
 
Hi

Just my views on this. While I am sickened by what happened - I have come to the realization that justice is rarely served here on this earth. Nor do I believe it ever will be, and, the problem is getting worse. “As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of man”

While we claim to have a ‘Justice System’ sadly enough it is only in name, not in function. What it is is a legal system that seems to function based on two things: 1) The amount of monetary damage you’ve caused. and 2) The amount of fear the act instills in the courts/jurors. Rather than a true morally based judicial code (which was the original intent of the system) what we have is a watered down (well watered) legal code/sentencing guidelines (read 10 commandments) which doesn’t fix anything, and knowing that - we have all but given up on rehabilitation (read Christ) and resigned ourselves to the fact that all we can do is punish based on the two criteria above (which are based on societies worldly values) and relegate ourselves to justifying our actions based on the fact that people will be people, nobody is perfect, and, everyone deserves a second chance - at least, unless they pose a real threat to our pocket books, or our sense of personal security.

In short - everything is permissable, but not everything is acceptable if it’s too scary…or too expensive.

Peace
John
 
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