What if Christ's message had been accepted?

[Tom_in_WNY]

I have been reflecting on the Passion accounts of our Lord, and I keep coming back to the question-what if the Jews had accepted him as the Messiah? My understanding has always been that Jesus had to die on the cross for mankind to be made right with God.

For Christ to be crucified, however, the free will of multiple individuals had to act in a certain way for the event to happen. Judas had to betray Jesus, the elders had to reject his message, Pilate had to issue the order for the death sentence. Did God know that these individuals would make their choices in the way that they did, and somehow fit all the right pieces for Passion to occur through Divine Providence?

I know that God would not predestine such evil (if I understand Catholic theology), but I am intriqued that He would somehow create the right circumstances for the Passion through his omniscience.

Any thoughts on this, and in particular any recommendations on further reading?

 

[LilyM]

I have been reflecting on the Passion accounts of our Lord, and I keep coming back to the question-what if the Jews had accepted him as the Messiah? My understanding has always been that Jesus had to die on the cross for mankind to be made right with God.

For Christ to be crucified, however, the free will of multiple individuals had to act in a certain way for the event to happen. Judas had to betray Jesus, the elders had to reject his message, Pilate had to issue the order for the death sentence. Did God know that these individuals would make their choices in the way that they did, and somehow fit all the right pieces for Passion to occur through Divine Providence?

I know that God would not predestine such evil (if I understand Catholic theology), but I am intriqued that He would somehow create the right circumstances for the Passion through his omniscience.

Any thoughts on this, and in particular any recommendations on further reading?

Jesus had to die, but there’s really no particular reason He had to die on the cross, or otherwise die in the exact manner He did - it was prophesied that He would suffer and be killed, but most of the details weren’t specified.

God didn’t create the circumstances, except in as far as a person who gives birth to a child creates the circumstances for everything else that happens in that child’s life. He created US and gave us free will, intervenes in our lives at some times and leaves us more alone at others, but never forces anything upon us.

Knowing that something is going to happen isn’t at all the same thing as creating the circumstances for it to happen. I can see someone teetering on a window ledge and know that they’re going to fall, it doesn’t mean I MAKE them fall in any way.

Nor even that I necessarily create the circumstances for their fall. Presumably other factors contribute - the person’s choice to step out onto the ledge, or the choice of another to push them out if they were pushed, or whatnot.

In the same way our own free will and the free will of others contribute to the circumstances of our lives, and the free will of Judas and Pilate and the rest contributed to the circumstances of Jesus’ death. That’s why we consider what they did to be sinful, for nothing was forced upon them in any way.

Pilate could’ve chosen not to issue the order. What would have happened then? Who knows, maybe the crowd would’ve grabbed Him and crucified Him themselves, or killed Him some other way. He certainly would’ve died, as I said - maybe at the age of 50 instead of 33? Who knows. The will of God, and Jesus’ self-sacrificial death, would’ve been accomplished in some fashion, as Jonah was taken to Nineveh by the whale.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I have been reflecting on the Passion accounts of our Lord, and I keep coming back to the question-what if the Jews had accepted him as the Messiah? My understanding has always been that Jesus had to die on the cross for mankind to be made right with God.

For Christ to be crucified, however, the free will of multiple individuals had to act in a certain way for the event to happen. Judas had to betray Jesus, the elders had to reject his message, Pilate had to issue the order for the death sentence. Did God know that these individuals would make their choices in the way that they did, and somehow fit all the right pieces for Passion to occur through Divine Providence?

I know that God would not predestine such evil (if I understand Catholic theology), but I am intriqued that He would somehow create the right circumstances for the Passion through his omniscience.

Any thoughts on this, and in particular any recommendations on further reading?

this is essentially the free will/omniscience debate

the solution is that there is no time. its a scale we use to refer to change. this means that in the temporal sense G-ds knowledge and their free will decisions are concurrent.

G-d knows your decisions when they are made. there is no separation iof time between the two.

here is a theoretical physicist expaining the concept.

youtube.com/watch?v=WKsNraFxPwk

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Jesus had to die, but there’s really no particular reason He had to die on the cross, or otherwise die in the exact manner He did - it was prophesied that He would suffer and be killed, but most of the details weren’t specified.

God didn’t create the circumstances, except in as far as a person who gives birth to a child creates the circumstances for everything else that happens in that child’s life. He created US and gave us free will, intervenes in our lives at some times and leaves us more alone at others, but never forces anything upon us.

Knowing that something is going to happen isn’t at all the same thing as creating the circumstances for it to happen. I can see someone teetering on a window ledge and know that they’re going to fall, it doesn’t mean I MAKE them fall in any way.

Nor even that I necessarily create the circumstances for their fall. Presumably other factors contribute - the person’s choice to step out onto the ledge, or the choice of another to push them out if they were pushed, or whatnot.

In the same way our own free will and the free will of others contribute to the circumstances of our lives, and the free will of Judas and Pilate and the rest contributed to the circumstances of Jesus’ death. That’s why we consider what they did to be sinful, for nothing was forced upon them in any way.

Pilate could’ve chosen not to issue the order. What would have happened then? Who knows, maybe the crowd would’ve grabbed Him and crucified Him themselves, or killed Him some other way. He certainly would’ve died, as I said - maybe at the age of 50 instead of 33? Who knows. The will of God, and Jesus’ self-sacrificial death, would’ve been accomplished in some fashion, as Jonah was taken to Nineveh by the whale.

Some of the details were specified though. That’s what made it all the more miraculous. Before crucifixion was even invented, david penned Psalm 22:

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [a]

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 “He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother’s breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me ** in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
**

This psalm describes his hands and feet being pierced, and the feelings of agony described mesh perfectly with what a victim of crucifixion go through.

 

[Julian0404]

this is essentially the free will/omniscience debate

the solution is that there is no time. its a scale we use to refer to change. this means that in the temporal sense G-ds knowledge and their free will decisions are concurrent.

G-d knows your decisions when they are made. there is no separation iof time between the two.

here is a theoretical physicist expaining the concept.

youtube.com/watch?v=WKsNraFxPwk

Very good lecture. Second time I have heard such a theory, only this time from a slightly different aspect. It brings me back to Jesus words, “I am the way, the truth, and THE LIGHT.”

 

[LilyM]

Very good lecture. Second time I have heard such a theory, only this time from a slightly different aspect. It brings me back to Jesus words, “I am the way, the truth, and THE LIGHT.”

Uh, that’s actually ‘ego sum via, et veritas, et VITA’ - ‘I am the way,. the truth and the LIFE’.

Though elsewhere He says ‘I am the light of the world’.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Very good lecture. Second time I have heard such a theory, only this time from a slightly different aspect. It brings me back to Jesus words, “I am the way, the truth, and THE LIGHT.”

:tiphat: