What if the Pope was wrong?

[JReducation]

Dogma: comes from the Latin term, a teaching

In the case of the faith it is a teaching that is absolute and cannot be changed, such as the Immaculate Conception. There is not discipline involved here, nothing to be done per se.

Discipline: comes from the Latin term, a disciple

In the case of faith it requires the same assent that a student gives to a teacher. However, the teacher can change the direction in which the students go. The disciple follows the lead. This includes such situations as how we celebrate liturgy.

The Eucharist = dogma
The form = discipline

You cannot change the dogma.
You can change the form.

The forms were never intended to be absolute truths. They were intended to be absolutely followed, which is different. But a Pope, in his role as teacher, can redirect how it is followed. He cannot change the teaching of the Eucharist, because that belongs to the fullness of truth that subsists within the Church. It is not within his authority to change the fullness of truth. Only how the truth is taught, not the truth itself.

JR

 

[elts1956]

Dogma: comes from the Latin term, a teaching

In the case of the faith it is a teaching that is absolute and cannot be changed, such as the Immaculate Conception. There is not discipline involved here, nothing to be done per se.

Discipline: comes from the Latin term, a disciple

In the case of faith it requires the same assent that a student gives to a teacher. However, the teacher can change the direction in which the students go. The disciple follows the lead. This includes such situations as how we celebrate liturgy.

The Eucharist = dogma
The form = discipline

You cannot change the dogma.
You can change the form.

The forms were never intended to be absolute truths. They were intended to be absolutely followed, which is different. But a Pope, in his role as teacher, can redirect how it is followed. He cannot change the teaching of the Eucharist, because that belongs to the fullness of truth that subsists within the Church. It is not within his authority to change the fullness of truth. Only how the truth is taught, not the truth itself.

JR

Thanks JR. You speak with clarity and truth.

 

[GreenLantern]

No pope, including John Paul II has ever said that it is possible to be saved outside the Catholic Church.

Of course, that doesn’t mean that one has to be willing to check “Catholic” on a census to actually be a Catholic.

 

[JReducation]

No pope, including John Paul II has ever said that it is possible to be saved outside the Catholic Church.

Of course, that doesn’t mean that one has to be willing to check “Catholic” on a census to actually be a Catholic.

GL you are correct. No Pope has ever said this.

People become confused with the statement made the Church “Christ uses these communities as a means to salvation”

When taken out of context it sound as if there is salvation outside the Church. But that statement was from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Ut Unum Sint.

The statement has a subordinate clause to it that says that those means to salvation found in other ecclesial communities are there through the grace and merits of the Catholic Church.

The Church goes on to point out how other ecclesial communities are still linked to the Catholic Church. She also points out that the Spirit of Christ wants so much to save us that he will use whatever means is left to do so. If another ecclesial community has only one Catholic gene, to use a metaphor, Christ uses the Catholic gene to save.

As you see the salvation comes through the Catholic Church, not from outside the Catholic Church. It reaches out to those who are physically outside the Church, but it reaches to them from within the Catholic Church by using whatever is Catholic about them, even it it’s just a single thread.

What the Church teaches then is that Christ is merciful toward all men and that the Church is the means of salvation. When Christ finds any ray of Catholicism in a person or community, he uses that ray to save.

The Church is also very clear that the goal is for all people to come into FULL communion with the Catholic Church. Even though they have a piece of the truth, they are still short of the whole truth.

The Church also recognizes that no man is void of truth. The truth is planted into the heart, conscience and soul of man at the moment of creation. However, this truth must be cultivated or activated. In many people, including Catholics, there are many parts of the truth that are still dormant. They do not see them or know them.

Therefore, the mission of the Church is to bring all men to an awareness and an embrace fo all truth, not just part of it. This is charity.

Nonetheless, there is reason why this has to be done in an aggressive manner. Christ’s brothers and sisters have a God-given righth to be treated with the same reverence and respect as their brother whom we acknowledge as Lord and Saviour.

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

GL you are correct. No Pope has ever said this.

People become confused with the statement made the Church “Christ uses these communities as a means to salvation”

When taken out of context it sound as if there is salvation outside the Church. But that statement was from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Ut Unum Sint.

The statement has a subordinate clause to it that says that those means to salvation found in other ecclesial communities are there through the grace and merits of the Catholic Church.

The Church goes on to point out how other ecclesial communities are still linked to the Catholic Church. She also points out that the Spirit of Christ wants so much to save us that he will use whatever means is left to do so. If another ecclesial community has only one Catholic gene, to use a metaphor, Christ uses the Catholic gene to save.

As you see the salvation comes through the Catholic Church, not from outside the Catholic Church. It reaches out to those who are physically outside the Church, but it reaches to them from within the Catholic Church by using whatever is Catholic about them, even it it’s just a single thread.

What the Church teaches then is that Christ is merciful toward all men and that the Church is the means of salvation. When Christ finds any ray of Catholicism in a person or community, he uses that ray to save.

The Church is also very clear that the goal is for all people to come into FULL communion with the Catholic Church. Even though they have a piece of the truth, they are still short of the whole truth.

The Church also recognizes that no man is void of truth. The truth is planted into the heart, conscience and soul of man at the moment of creation. However, this truth must be cultivated or activated. In many people, including Catholics, there are many parts of the truth that are still dormant. They do not see them or know them.

Therefore, the mission of the Church is to bring all men to an awareness and an embrace fo all truth, not just part of it. This is charity.

Nonetheless, there is reason why this has to be done in an aggressive manner. Christ’s brothers and sisters have a God-given righth to be treated with the same reverence and respect as their brother whom we acknowledge as Lord and Saviour.

JR

This insight into God’s mercy is what makes the Catholic Church so beautiful and holy, she is truly growing in wisdom and stature through the ages, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, becoming that Bride without blemish and without spot. It’s why as a convert, I have grown to love and embrace her, and continue to as I continue to learn all there is to learn from her, which it seems is endless.

Thanks for this post, it is very clearly and beautifully written.

 

[JReducation]

This insight into God’s mercy is what makes the Catholic Church so beautiful and holy, she is truly growing in wisdom and stature through the ages, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, becoming that Bride without blemish and without spot. It’s why as a convert, I have grown to love and embrace her, and continue to as I continue to learn all there is to learn from her, which it seems is endless.

Thanks for this post, it is very clearly and beautifully written.

I should state that there NO reason why this has to be done in an aggressive manner. That was a typo on my part.

JR

 

[Contarini]

I have recently been asked by a non-Catholic how I can trust Pope Benedict when what he says about the salvation of Non-Catholics is so drastically different from what John Paul II preached about salvation for all. To this non-Catholic, one Pope must be lying since he (my friend) can’t be both going to hell for not being Catholic (according to Benedict) and assured of his salvation thanks to his faithful practice of his Baptist beliefs (according to John Paul II). I have no way to answer him, and my search for answers only brings up more questions for me. Can someone assist me with these?

1 - Did Pope John Paul II teach that anyone who believes in Jesus would go to heaven? If so, how do we as a church reconcile that, when our catecism says it is not true?
2 - Obviously, Benedict XVI is more conservative than JP II – how do we explain to non-Catholics why it is okay for Popes to have differing opinions and priorities without discrediting our belief that the Pope is infalliable?
3 - A lot of what I have read about JP II’s papacy is highly critical of his ecumenism, which almost sounds like he, the infalliable Pope, could have been wrong. Is this possible?

The more I read, the more confused I get, and I would be greatful for any insight or direction you could provide for me. Thank you so much for reading and taking a moment to assist me.

Blessings,
Krista

I haven’t read through the entire thread, but it seems to me that one basic point needs to be reiterated: your friend has completely misread what Pope Benedict said. In fact, I question whether he bothered to read the Vatican document in question. Most people don’t. They rely on newspaper accounts which are inaccurate. The Pope has never said or even hinted that non-Catholics are all going to hell. He has never said anything that a reasonable person with some knowledge of Catholic terminology would interpret as implying this. All the Vatican document said was that Protestant churches do not have apostolic succession and thus are not strictly speaking “churches.”

Your friend is guilty of intellectual laziness and hence of a serious sin against justice.

Also, Pope John Paul II did not say that people who faithfully follow their Baptist practices are assured of salvation. I presume that this is your paraphrase–surely no Baptist would hope for salvation based on following any practices!

Membership in any religious group whatsoever does not assure you of salvation. According to Catholicism, salvation comes from faith that works through love. That means among other things, faith that works itself out through a faithful adherence to the truth as we know and understand it.

Edwin

 

[JReducation]

I have recently been asked by a non-Catholic how I can trust Pope Benedict when what he says about the salvation of Non-Catholics is so drastically different from what John Paul II preached about salvation for all. To this non-Catholic, one Pope must be lying since he (my friend) can’t be both going to hell for not being Catholic (according to Benedict) and assured of his salvation thanks to his faithful practice of his Baptist beliefs (according to John Paul II). I have no way to answer him, and my search for answers only brings up more questions for me. Can someone assist me with these?

1 - Did Pope John Paul II teach that anyone who believes in Jesus would go to heaven? If so, how do we as a church reconcile that, when our catecism says it is not true?
2 - Obviously, Benedict XVI is more conservative than JP II – how do we explain to non-Catholics why it is okay for Popes to have differing opinions and priorities without discrediting our belief that the Pope is infalliable?
3 - A lot of what I have read about JP II’s papacy is highly critical of his ecumenism, which almost sounds like he, the infalliable Pope, could have been wrong. Is this possible?

The more I read, the more confused I get, and I would be greatful for any insight or direction you could provide for me. Thank you so much for reading and taking a moment to assist me.

Blessings,
Krista

Read my post 124 in which I tried to explain what the Church has actually said. There is a typo on the last line. It should say “not aggressively” instead of aggressively.

Fraternally,

JR