What if the radical Islamists are RIGHT???

[Sure]

Again… what is a civilian? If someone not in a uniform takes up weapons against US soldiers, are they civilians, or a militia? We had that problem in VietNam, and in Afghanistand and Iraq. When you have non-uniformed persons who shoot and then disappear into the crowd, is that fair to say they are mere civilians?

We were about to turn several million people into Japanese soldiers. I wonder how many Japanese people who were not killed by the bomb were sort of glad deep down that they would not have to fight to the death.

I understand your point about civilians in warfare. The people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were DEFINITELY civilians. No one made a case that women and small children were soldiers. Pope John Paul II understood this well as evidenced by his quotation above.

Keep in mind there are ZERO moral theolgians in good standing who justify the bombing of Japan. They all acknowledge that it was clearly an evil act that was done because of flawed proportionalist reasoning.

 

[paarsurrey]

I don’t believe radical Islamists are doing God’s will.

Hi

I agree with you.

Islam is a religion of peace and promotes freedom of individuals for Muslim and non-Muslims alike and promotes peace.

There is a Just war Doctrine which defines what is to be done when attacked or wronged. It is not attached with the NTBible but it has been practiced by the Catholics over the years in history, one must not deny it if one is impartial.

There are no verses in Quran that support general killing of people for conversion. Muhammad was truly a peaceful person so should be the Muslims if they follow him.

The subject becomes very clear when the real context is provided to verses as mentioned in the Holy Quran : Chapter 22: Al-Hajj:

[22:40] Permission to take up arms is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged and Allah, indeed, has power to help them.
[22:41] Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly, only because they said, ‘Our Lord is Allah.’ And if Allah had not repelled some people by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft remembered, would surely have been destroyed. And Allah will, surely, help him who helps Him. Allah is, indeed, Powerful, Mighty -
[22:42] Those who, if We establish them in the earth, will observe Prayer and pay the Zakat and enjoin good and forbid evil. And with Allah rests the final issue of all affairs.

Thanks

 

[nonsumd]

As I see it, there were more alternatives that just “drop the atom bombs on Japan” or “lose a million of our soldiers and tens of millions of their people, soldiers and civilions.”

Japan was already cut off from most of its conquests. Most of its cities had already been razed to the ground by conventional bombing. Its people were already starving. It was only a matter of time before the government surrendered. In any case, Japan was no longer capable of another Pearl Harbor.

What would it have cost the US to let Japan collapse on its own?

The only excuse I can think for this unnecessary violence is the “passion of war,” not any “reasonable” and “moral” calculation. Now every nation in the world (except Japan) feels it has the right to arm itself with these mindlessly destructive weapons.

 

[KathleenElsie]

As I see it, there were more alternatives that just “drop the atom bombs on Japan” or “lose a million of our soldiers and tens of millions of their people, soldiers and civilians.”

Japan was already cut off from most of its conquests. Most of its cities had already been razed to the ground by conventional bombing. Its people were already starving. It was only a matter of time before the government surrendered. In any case, Japan was no longer capable of another Pearl Harbor.

What would it have cost the US to let Japan collapse on its own?

The only excuse I can think for this unnecessary violence is the “passion of war,” not any “reasonable” and “moral” calculation. Now every nation in the world (except Japan) feels it has the right to arm itself with these mindlessly destructive weapons.

We can go to this:

God does not promote evil.
Evil done for “good” reasons is not allowed. It is still evil.
We do not know how God will judge those that promoted pure evil acts.
Natural law is within us all and thus it is within us to know what pure evil is.
We as believers in the triune God are to fight evil where we find it in just ways.
We are not to just allow evil to take over.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The God that I know in the Bible does not justify killing innocent people, women, children, etc.

You didnt know God (of the bible) well enough:

1 Samuel 15: 1-3
Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them;* put to death men and women, children** and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’*"

 

[KathleenElsie]

You didnt know God (of the bible) well enough:

1 Samuel 15: 1-3Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them;** put to death men and women, children** and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’"

And they did not do as God commanded. This is the root of many things going on now.

BUT, Christ in the NT has said the old law is ended and the new begun.

 

[AgnosTheist]

And they did not do as God commanded.

Saul did, he committed genocide and spared only their king. Allah akhbar! God knows best?

BUT, Christ in the NT has said the old law is ended and the new begun.

Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law.

Hi

Jesus said and he meant it, it is Paul who changed it.

Thanks

 

[nonsumd]

We can go to this:

God does not promote evil.
Evil done for “good” reasons is not allowed. It is still evil.
We do not know how God will judge those that promoted pure evil acts.
Natural law is within us all and thus it is within us to know what pure evil is.
We as believers in the triune God are to fight evil where we find it in just ways.
We are not to just allow evil to take over.

Yes, KathleenElsie. The ends never justify the means. If we proceed as if they do, we will never achieve our ends.

If we resort to violence to achieve peace, true and lasting peace is exactly what we will never achieve.

Our Catholic Church remains a “sign of contradiction” in this world because it keeps reminding the world that the ends never justify the means and that there is such a thing as a natural law written on the human heart.

 

[paarsurrey]

BUT, Christ in the NT has said the old law is ended and the new begun.

Hi

These could not be the words of Jesus; these must have been in my opinion the words of Paul or edited by Paul. Jesus came to revive the true Law of Moses. How could he present a new law? He was not authorised to do so by GodAllahYHWH.

Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi

These could not be the words of Jesus; these must have been in my opinion the words of Paul or edited by Paul. Jesus came to revive the true Law of Moses. How could he present a new law? He was not authorised to do so by GodAllahYHWH.

Thanks

Paars,
Jesus is God, this is what us Christians believe. He is part of the trinity.
So every word that Jesus said, every law that he created was authorized by God.

 

[blessedtoo]

I know the terrorists are wrong, but what if, in their mind, they actually believe they are doing God’s will? If they really and truely believe this, our merciful God may actually spare them?
I wonder what went down between them and God right after they died in the crash?

Anybody have any thoughts about this?

It makes me think of the abortion bombings. The people who committed these horrendous crimes did so because they believed it was right and moral. They believed, on some level, that what they were doing was for God’s glory.

Of course we recognize them as deranged individuals who have completely distorted the Christain message.

I believe this to be the case with those who wish to kill innocents in the name of Islam.

As for what God might say to them after death, I can’t imagine. It is such a great question and one I have often wrestled with as well.

 

[dessert]

I don’t believe radical Islamists are doing God’s will.
The God that I know in the Bible does not justify killing innocent people, women, children, etc.

But I remember right after 9-11 thinking to myself:

I know the terrorists are wrong, but what if, in their mind, they actually believe they are doing God’s will? If they really and truely believe this, our merciful God may actually spare them?
I wonder what went down between them and God right after they died in the crash?

Anybody have any thoughts about this?

I put the question to you.

Is this the same God?

Suppose there were a power blackout of lights on the plane and and you could talk to people near you but not see them at all. suppose a man came and told you that he prays even for his enimies and tries to do good to them.
Then a few minutes later, you talk to a man whose voice sounds similar, but he says that he brutally kills his enemies, even innocent women and children. Would you come away thinking you were talking to the same man?

The planes were brutally flown by persons into anything they could hit intending to kil anyone or all people that it would harm including suicide of the persons.

God is perfect, therefore He is always consistent. If someone pretends to be speaking for God, but does not say what we know God says, then the pretender cannot be God.

They probably felt like heros but in Satan’s army.
Dessert

 

[Abu_Ismail]

I don’t believe radical Islamists are doing God’s will.
The God that I know in the Bible does not justify killing innocent people, women, children, etc.

But I remember right after 9-11 thinking to myself:

I know the terrorists are wrong, but what if, in their mind, they actually believe they are doing God’s will? If they really and truely believe this, our merciful God may actually spare them?
I wonder what went down between them and God right after they died in the crash?

Anybody have any thoughts about this?

Killing innocent people is a grave sin, especially in Islam. I doubt those that did 9-11 will get off lightly somehow, but God knows best.