what if you were in our (womens') shoes?

[Stephen168]

Since you were apparently unsatisfied with the way I answered this post the first time I shall go into greater detail:

Yes, virtually no one has an absolute power with regard to acting as you wish.

But simply by being corporeal beings we face certain restrictions.

No one really has unlimited power, if that is what you mean by true power.

Which is why most people never care about power or out grow it.

 

[bhall0689]

I think you might be confused on what I’m trying to say. What is on the list is a completely difference subject than the claim made by the guy who wrote the list. His claim is irrational even if I agreed with everything on it. He (a male) claims he made at list of privileges which he claimed men (males) are oblivious, so he (a male) also being oblivious could not have made the list. Try it yourself- Make a list of some things you are not aware of………… See; first you have to be aware (not oblivious) before you can write it down. The fact he lied about creating the list has no bearing on the truth of the list itself.

As far as your other question……I think it would be difficult for a man to comment on the condition of women, because men are not women. If a man lived a very charmed life and the only struggle and pain he ever saw was suffered by women, he might be able to have some empathy. I’m not that guy and I don’t know any guys like that. Life is a struggle for men and women. The list does not make be angry, I think it is pointless. I think the majority of the list reflects an attitude that is 30 years old. Many things were true for my wife 30 years ago but are not true for my daughter today. Most of his introduction is either false or women inflict it on themselves. Number 14 is not true for me and I could care less, so I have no idea why it should bother a woman. Now that my son’s are beyond draft age I don’t have to worry about them being forced to fight and die for their country. My son’s have not had children yet. We are very close to our grandchild by our daughter, but we are not sure how close we want to get to our son’s kids if they have them; knowing their wives could leave them for no reason, and take the kids away. I’m not sure why a man’s reason for being gets ripped away from him with all the power he has. My brother-in-law just got divorced and didn’t even hire a lawyer because he knew it would not change his fate. I point this out because I don’t think men and women are treated equal by our government and it is the men getting the worst of it. To summarize: I see the list as a pointless ancient whine out of anyone’s control.
What is your recommended solution to #2,4,9,10,11,12,13,21,22,23,24,28,29,32,41?
Who has control over #26,33,37,38,39?

I also think you’re missing my point, which is a relatively simple one. Both men and women can become engendered to the problems of the opposite sex, but that does not change the fact that the problem still exists. I think the fact that it is authored by a male makes it more relevant, because it is a man speaking to other men about issues he has seen and acknowledged. It’s silly for you to dismiss the entire document based on the gender of the person writing it.

You say it would be difficult for a man to comment on the condition of women, because they are not women. Well, then why are you posting in this thread? You and other posters seem to think that you have at least some authority over women’s feelings and thoughts. Do you admit, since you admit that you do not know how women really feel, that some of the feelings expressed in this thread and on my list might then be legitimate?
You might think ideas on the list are outmoded, but I can assure you they were not. The list was originally published in a college textbook of mine, for a class I took last year. The class (evenly split female/male) all identified with the problems and feelings that the list explores. Speak for yourself, but you are probably much older than I, and I don’t think you have the authority to speak for the younger generation if you are not part of it, similar to your claim of ignorance towards the female condition simply because you are not one.

My answers/solutions to your specifically cited numbers are probably not best suited for the context of this thread, as I feel I’ve already derailed it a bit, but we could always discuss further via PM. Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s any “hard and fast” solutions to these problems. It’s not as easy as writing or changing a law, because these problems exist within the fabric of our society, not within the context of our justice system or government.

Anyways, feel free to PM me if you really want to delve into a more in-depth discussion. I could also shoot some more fantastic reading your way.

By the way, to give you some context: Yes, I am a feminist. I believe that women are just as intelligent, capable, gifted, and talented as men. I think there are intrinsic differences in our physical bodies, but I believe in equal opportunity in the secular AND religious world. It’s why I’m not longer Catholic. It was a HUGE point of contention for me, and it’s why I’m drawn and post almost exclusively on CAF in threads dealing with gender issues. It’s a way of challenging my own convictions/non-convictions every day.

 

[Stephen168]

I believe that women are just as intelligent, capable, gifted, and talented as men. I think there are intrinsic differences in our physical bodies, but I believe in equal opportunity in the secular AND religious world.

I agree with you. It is just too bad some women perceive men as being superior and want to be like them. My daughter is a feminist also but doesn’t want to act like a man.

I was going to respond to other parts of your post but I’ve decide that either you don’t read my posts or you don’t have the education yet to understand them. I say that because you claim I say things after I’ve just said the opposite and you ask me to explain things I just explained. I also don’t think your little girl rant was called for.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Ancient Asian prejudices did not come from the Church -nor did those ideas have anything to do with rewards in Heaven -hence the apples and oranges.
All humans men & women are call to humility, all are called to reject being prideful. Men are not called to the priesthood to receive credit, places of honor or power. This is a burden because such positions are great temptations to fall in to sin. Women have been given the better part because we are freed from such a burden. All of God’s creatures are called to give glory to God. I don’t know to communicate what I mean in a way that you can understand because you operate with a different compass as an atheist.

I understand, I simply reject your reasoning.

 

[bhall0689]

I agree with you. It is just too bad some women perceive men as being superior and want to be like them. My daughter is a feminist also but doesn’t want to act like a man.

I was going to respond to other parts of your post but I’ve decide that either you don’t read my posts or you don’t have the education yet to understand them. I say that because you claim I say things after I’ve just said the opposite and you ask me to explain things I just explained. I also don’t think your little girl rant was called for.

I don’t know what you mean, “act like men.” I’m feminine, yet I want the same opportunities as men in my educational career, in the family, in my faith, and my job. Is this “acting like a man?”

I know I’m young, but your ageist comment is insulting. My level of education (just graduate with a double major in English Writing and Biology) does not reflect immature opinions. My opinions are just as worthy as any other member of this board, some of whom I’m sure never attended any college at all. Are my opinions inherently more worthy than theirs?

 

[Ashton_Gaskill]

I don’t know what you mean, “act like men.” I’m feminine, yet I want the same opportunities as men in my educational career, in the family, in my faith, and my job. Is this “acting like a man?”

Out of curiosity, have you read anything about Theology of the Body? I skipped to the last page of this thread, so I must admit I don’t know if this has come up before or not, but in “Theology of the Body Explained” Christopher West does an excellent job conveying Pope John Paul II’s writing about how and why men and women are different and what that involves (beyond the obvious physical differences). Equal yet unarguably different, the two genders are. Just a bit of suggested reading.

 

[bhall0689]

Out of curiosity, have you read anything about Theology of the Body? I skipped to the last page of this thread, so I must admit I don’t know if this has come up before or not, but in “Theology of the Body Explained” Christopher West does an excellent job conveying Pope John Paul II’s writing about how and why men and women are different and what that involves (beyond the obvious physical differences). Equal yet unarguably different, the two genders are. Just a bit of suggested reading.

I have. I love and respect John Paul II, but I take issues with certain portions of the text, although I agree with other parts of it. Sorry. I’ve expressed that this is a main point of contention between me and the Catholic faith. At this point it seems irreparable.

I remember the first time I felt serious doubt was in a high school Catholic morality class, in which women were commonly described as “active recipients” :ehh: Put a bad taste in my mouth then and still does. I am the master of my own destiny. I have worked hard my entire life to make my dreams come true.

 

[GraceDK]

I remember the first time I felt serious doubt was in a high school Catholic morality class, in which women were commonly described as “active recipients” :ehh: Put a bad taste in my mouth then and still does. I am the master of my own destiny. I have worked hard my entire life to make my dreams come true.

Haha… gosh, I found someone who I can relate to on that… I have to hear that cliche again and again: Man is the active, the woman the active receptive…
I have to stop my self from roling my eyes whenever I hear it and never could find any argument to support it that could hold any scrutiny, and believe me, I have heard very intelligent but very speculative ones.
I’m happy it wasn’t Christ who said it but its an interpretation of reality which is the invention of predominanly male Catholic thinkers and theologians.

 

[GraceDK]

I agree with you. It is just too bad some women perceive men as being superior and want to be like them. My daughter is a feminist also but doesn’t want to act like a man.

I was going to respond to other parts of your post but I’ve decide that either you don’t read my posts or you don’t have the education yet to understand them. I say that because you claim I say things after I’ve just said the opposite and you ask me to explain things I just explained. I also don’t think your little girl rant was called for.

I find it tiresome that whenever women talk about unequality we are accused of some kind of penis envy or wanting to be men. Its Freud all over again… he couldnt imagine that the world didn’t evolve around the male genitalia.

I am a woman, I never wanted to be a man, but I want to be treated with the same respect as men.
In my school I often felt boys were favourized and found more clever than girls even if the two were at the same level.
I live in a society where a womans worth is measured on her looks and youth, and a man’s worth is measured on his intelligence.
Where there is a very big gab in what is expected from men and women when it comes to child-rearing.
I did actually exprience guys coming up to me on the street and say: “smile” … like I am some kind of bimbo who has to look happy when I am not.

The system needs to change… and that extends to the minds of Catholic men, I am sorry to say. There has to be true equality of oppinions instead of stereotyping and trying to pressure people into narrow boxes.

Dont you agree?

 

[jmcrae]

This isn’t about imagination, or the way we look at things, or being oppressed. It’s nothing about controller her mind or body. It’s about putting herself in harm’s way for absolutely no reason at all, other than the thrill of taking a risk at getting hurt. Do you suppose that sort of mentality is a bit like those people who play Russian Roulette?

Do you honestly think that this is a “woman” thing? No - there are plenty of males who put themselves in mortal danger simply for the thrill of it, as well. I knew plenty of boys when I was a teenager who liked to drive their cars at walls really fast, to see if they could stop in time before crashing. And there were girls who rode with them.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Women? They complain about being in ‘their shoes’ - sounds like an excuse to buy another pair…

 

[cviolette]

Do you honestly think that this is a “woman” thing? No - there are plenty of males who put themselves in mortal danger simply for the thrill of it, as well. I knew plenty of boys when I was a teenager who liked to drive their cars at walls really fast, to see if they could stop in time before crashing. And there were girls who rode with them.

I have 3 teenage boys. I definitely agree with you. I have spent many hours in the emergency room with my boys.

Women? They complain about being in ‘their shoes’ - sounds like an excuse to buy another pair…

LOL!

 

[wild_thing]

Women? They complain about being in ‘their shoes’ - sounds like an excuse to buy another pair…

Oh, no you didn’t!

 

[Stephen168]

Haha… gosh, I found someone who I can relate to on that… I have to hear that cliche again and again: Man is the active, the woman the active receptive…

I have to stop my self from roling my eyes whenever I hear it and never could find any argument to support it that could hold any scrutiny, and believe me, I have heard very intelligent but very speculative ones.

To use your terminology; I think when women perceive inequality it is as much penis envy as uterus repulsion; a rejection or hyper-sensitivity of anything uniquely female.

I am a woman, I never wanted to be a man, but I want to be treated with the same respect as men.
In my school I often felt boys were favourized and found more clever than girls even if the two were at the same level.
I live in a society where a womans worth is measured on her looks and youth, and a man’s worth is measured on his intelligence.
Where there is a very big gab in what is expected from men and women when it comes to child-rearing.
I did actually exprience guys coming up to me on the street and say: “smile” … like I am some kind of bimbo who has to look happy when I am not.

This is why I believe that some women are envious of a perception. When I was growing up I was taught to respect women and older people just because they were women and older. Men do not get any respect just because they are men, they earn it individually.
When I was in school, I felt the girls were thought to be cleverer due to their superior verbal skills and perfect behavior, while the male future scientists were punished for farting on candles.
I think women do most of the measuring of women’s looks. And a man’s worth is measured by is…worth.
The only expected ‘gap’ I know of in child-rearing comes from the biological difference in men and women. All other expectations are negotiated by the parents of whom the woman is one.
When I was in high school, it seemed to me the girls were brutal to each other. By other girls, they were told how to act, what to wear, and who to like, and they were ostracized if they didn’t. Many of the boys were also sucked into the vortex of social pressure because they wanted to be liked by the girls. Many boys, refused to play these games.
Our children saw me as the disciplinarian; I was. Because I was the disciplinarian they perceived me to be the rule maker; I was not. My wife was the social fabric of the family; how, what, when we eat, how we celebrated holidays, how the kids treated each other, and how we dressed.
Envy is the pain caused by the good fortune of others; actual or perceived.

The system needs to change… and that extends to the minds of Catholic men, I am sorry to say. There has to be true equality of oppinions instead of stereotyping and trying to pressure people into narrow boxes
Dont you agree?

The system may need to change but the ‘system’ does not lay at the feet of men. Whenever I hear a woman complain about how “society” treats women, I think back to high school and my marriage to see who “society” is; mostly women.
The OP:

1. Men get to keep their last name
2. Men get to be the bread winner
3. Women have to stay home with children
4. Women can’t be priests just because the Church is the Bride of Christ
5. Men are called the ‘head of the family’ (Ephesians 5:25-33)
6. All the Apostles are men
7. Only the head of the family makes big decisions.
   Five of these are arrangements between a wife and her husband, and have nothing to do with government, society, or Catholic men in general. Men and women should be treated equally by our government; anything beyond that is tilting at windmills.

 

[bhall0689]

Envy is the pain caused by the good fortune of others; actual or perceived.

Would you accuse the figures of the women’s suffrage as guilty of the sin of envy? What about African Americans when they lobbied for equal rights as white citizens?

To use your terminology; I think when women perceive inequality it is as much penis envy as uterus repulsion; a rejection or hyper-sensitivity of anything uniquely female.

What is your basis for this? How would you discern if the opposite were true? I have no desire to have a penis or be a man - the thought of it feels utterly wrong. I just want the same intellectual opportunities and respect as men . . . because I deserve it.

Also, I still reject your reasoning that if government laws are gender-neutral, then all is fair. Not true at all. The treatment of a group depends on society. It is illegal to commit hate crimes against blacks, but white supremacists still do it.

 

[cviolette]

I have 3 boys and a girl. The elementary school and middle school treat girls better. They want the kids to sit still and pay attention. I have heard many parents say that our middle school is great if you are a girl. My boys have said that the girls can do whatever they want and the boys are sent to the office for little things. I could not believe the ridiculous things that the school called home about. I just have my daughter in middle school now. They school never calls anymore I had to homeschool one of my kids because the bully in the class was the teacher. And he was her favorite target. I wouldn’t let her babysit my cat.

When I was in high school, it seemed to me the girls were brutal to each other. By other girls, they were told how to act, what to wear, and who to like, and they were ostracized if they didn’t. Many of the boys were also sucked into the vortex of social pressure because they wanted to be liked by the girls. Many boys, refused to play these games.

Starts in elementary school now. The girls are awful. We live in a small town. There were only 4 girls in my daughters class. My daughter tried to play with them. Even asked me to buy her polly pockets to fit in. A couple weeks later, she handed me the polly pockets and told me to give them to the poor. It just wasn’t worth it. She just played with the boys and had a blast without all the head games. She is still friends with the boys but did make some girlfriends in middle school.

Some adult women are still vicious. With their gossip and spreading rumors.

The system may need to change but the ‘system’ does not lay at the feet of men. Whenever I hear a woman complain about how “society” treats women, I think back to high school and my marriage to see who “society” is; mostly women.
The OP:

1. Men get to keep their last name
2. Men get to be the bread winner
3. Women have to stay home with children
4. Women can’t be priests just because the Church is the Bride of Christ
5. Men are called the ‘head of the family’ (Ephesians 5:25-33)
6. All the Apostles are men
7. Only the head of the family makes big decisions.
   Five of these are arrangements between a wife and her husband, and have nothing to do with government, society, or Catholic men in general. Men and women should be treated equally by our government; anything beyond that is tilting at windmills.

Totally agree with you. I know several dads that are staying home with the kids and doing a great job. Also, a few dads that have full custody of their kids. I know two moms have supervised visitations just like abusive men. One had a drinking problem and the other was stalking the dad.

I have had no problem doing things that mostly men do. I went to school for engineering. Worked with mostly men for 13 years in a large defense company and I am a competitive powerlifter. I just don’t see society holding me back from doing the things I want.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

To use your terminology; I think when women perceive inequality it is as much penis envy as uterus repulsion; a rejection or hyper-sensitivity of anything uniquely female.
.

This statement is fundamentally wrong.

If you were just speaking of Western Feminists you *might *have a glimmer of a point (though accusing them of penis envy seems juvenile). But you appear to be speaking of all women.

There is real inequality to be perceived.

In poorer and less civilized parts of the world (and rich parts like Saudi Arabia that claim to be civilized) women are routinely (and often viciously) punished for things that men are not.

Here is an article by The Guardian about a teenage girl in Pakistan who was brutally executed for bringing shame on her community (by being raped): guardian.co.uk/world/1999/apr/18/theobserver7

In Iran and other countries were Sharia Law rules women’s legal testimony and their very lives are literally worth half that of a man’s (source: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/643526.stm).

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) has been long practiced in many areas of the Middle East and Africa. FGM is an unnecessary and dangerous procedure that frequently leads to chronic pain, severe medical complications, and an inability to enjoy sexual intercourse for the many women forced to undergo this dangerous surgery. All for the sake of maintaining a woman’s ‘purity’ and controlling her sexuality (relevant source: articles.nydailynews.com/2011-03-30/entertainment/29381849_1_waris-dirie-supermodel-liya-kebede-mutilation).

As a man I would never have to suffer any of these outrages, regardless of where I lived or where I was born. But for a great many women, such violence and degradation is all too common.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thanks to all who participated in this discussion.
This thread is now closed.