What is a "just cause" in refusing marriage debt?

[OraLabora]

Who said anything about your orthodoxy?

The term “marriage debt” is traditional Catholic vocabulary. Of that there is no doubt. The concept implied by the language, that the spouses have an obligation to participate in the marital act at the wish of the other, is traditional Catholic doctrine.

The only reason to toss out the vocabulary is because you don’t like the doctrine.

Bullfeathers. I have no problems with the doctrine and please stop trying to guess what my views on marriage or the faith are, because you are dead wrong. The word “obligation” is in fact less loaded, although also not perfect. “Debt” implies keeping an accounting of how many times accepted balanced against how many times refused, or requiring “regular payments”.

The word “obligation” is less loaded because it leaves room for mutual compromise on how to fulfill that obligation. It leaves room to suppose that there may be times when one or the other in a couple just doesn’t feel like it due to excess fatigue, illness, etc, but with the situation being temporary; your wording and in fact your views imply that even if a wife is ill, she has to submit to her husband’s sexual needs.

I can tell you from 23 years of married experience that respecting those times will go a lot farther towards a happy relationship than insisting on “regular payments” on a “debt”; it’s called self-control, sir. The notion that it’s a debt to be “paid” to me is an affront to the dignity of the act that is supposed to be a mutual and reciprocal gift of self.

The English language evolves, and so too does our understanding and way of expressing of basic truths. “Traditional” does not necessarily imply the need to use fossilized language or psychology for catechesis.

And let me give you a practical example of how this kind of understanding of “debt” can hurtful. A very close friend related to me once how his mother, hospitalized with terminal cancer, felt obligated to go in the ward’s bathroom to satisfy her “debt” as you call it, to her husband, because he insisted on it.

Respectfully, I find that kind of attitude simply disgusting and an affront to human dignity.

 

[Meximo]

Hi Friend

Dr. Greg Popcak from Pastoral Solutions has telephone counseling you might want to look into. exceptionalmarriages.com/services.htm

I will keep you and your family in prayer.

 

[severus68]

Bullfeathers. I have no problems with the doctrine and please stop trying to guess what my views on marriage or the faith are, because you are dead wrong. The word “obligation” is in fact less loaded, although also not perfect. “Debt” implies keeping an accounting of how many times accepted balanced against how many times refused, or requiring “regular payments”.

The word “obligation” is less loaded because it leaves room for mutual compromise on how to fulfill that obligation. It leaves room to suppose that there may be times when one or the other in a couple just doesn’t feel like it due to excess fatigue, illness, etc, but with the situation being temporary; your wording and in fact your views imply that even if a wife is ill, she has to submit to her husband’s sexual needs.

I can tell you from 23 years of married experience that respecting those times will go a lot farther towards a happy relationship than insisting on “regular payments” on a “debt”; it’s called self-control, sir. The notion that it’s a debt to be “paid” to me is an affront to the dignity of the act that is supposed to be a mutual and reciprocal gift of self.

The English language evolves, and so too does our understanding and way of expressing of basic truths. “Traditional” does not necessarily imply the need to use fossilized language or psychology for catechesis.

And let me give you a practical example of how this kind of understanding of “debt” can hurtful. A very close friend related to me once how his mother, hospitalized with terminal cancer, felt obligated to go in the ward’s bathroom to satisfy her “debt” as you call it, to her husband, because he insisted on it.

Respectfully, I find that kind of attitude simply disgusting and an affront to human dignity.

Well said, great post. What you friend’s mum had to do made me feel ill.

 

[dixieagle]

Bullfeathers. I have no problems with the doctrine and please stop trying to guess what my views on marriage or the faith are, because you are dead wrong. The word “obligation” is in fact less loaded, although also not perfect. “Debt” implies keeping an accounting of how many times accepted balanced against how many times refused, or requiring “regular payments”.

The word “obligation” is less loaded because it leaves room for mutual compromise on how to fulfill that obligation. It leaves room to suppose that there may be times when one or the other in a couple just doesn’t feel like it due to excess fatigue, illness, etc, but with the situation being temporary; your wording and in fact your views imply that even if a wife is ill, she has to submit to her husband’s sexual needs.

I can tell you from 23 years of married experience that respecting those times will go a lot farther towards a happy relationship than insisting on “regular payments” on a “debt”; it’s called self-control, sir. The notion that it’s a debt to be “paid” to me is an affront to the dignity of the act that is supposed to be a mutual and reciprocal gift of self.

The English language evolves, and so too does our understanding and way of expressing of basic truths. “Traditional” does not necessarily imply the need to use fossilized language or psychology for catechesis.

And let me give you a practical example of how this kind of understanding of “debt” can hurtful. A very close friend related to me once how his mother, hospitalized with terminal cancer, felt obligated to go in the ward’s bathroom to satisfy her “debt” as you call it, to her husband, because he insisted on it.

Respectfully, I find that kind of attitude simply disgusting and an affront to human dignity.

 

[mpsguard]

"I was sexually abused in my teens. It’s something that really affected me for about 3 or 4 years and then I feel like I just moved on. "

For your own good and the good of your marriage, you must see a therapist and complete the program he/she sets out for you. Sexual abuse deeply wounds people beyond their capacity to help themselves. It’s a great tragedy that has profound impacts on you whether you consciously feel them or not. Sexual avoidance is a symptom.

In Christ,

Mike S.

 

[Will_S]

“Debt” implies keeping an accounting of how many times accepted balanced against how many times refused, or requiring “regular payments”.

“Debt” implies that something is owed, which it is. As Fr. Jone writes in his Moral Theology, “Rendering the requested marriage debt is a grave obligation, especially when the petitioner is in danger of incontinence or would have to make a great sacrifice to overcome temptation.”

However, as the original poster, who is a traditional Catholic, knows very well, the debt may be refused for various reasons, for example: adultery, non-support, danger to health or life, unreasonable demand, etc.

The word “obligation” is less loaded because it leaves room for mutual compromise on how to fulfill that obligation. It leaves room to suppose that there may be times when one or the other in a couple just doesn’t feel like it due to excess fatigue, illness, etc, but with the situation being temporary

There is always room for compromise, but if one spouse does not wish to negotiate the matter, and there is no just cause to refuse to render the debt, then the obligation stands and must be fulfilled. Whether that is a good idea for the relationship between the spouses is a totally different matter. For one spouse to inflexibly demand relations when the other spouse is opposed is extremely unwise and, depending on the circumstances, may well be a sin against charity.

Your wording and in fact your views imply that even if a wife is ill, she has to submit to her husband’s sexual needs.

“Ill” is a word that encompasses many different conditions. Assuming the illness is mild, then the obligation stands. Fr. Jone writes, regarding health as an excuse from rendering the debt: “[Danger to health and life] would be given in the case of gravely infectious diseases, of a very weak heart, etc. – The ordinary hardships of pregnancy, childbirth, nursing, and care of children, such as intense of brief pains, prolonged but mild headaches, etc. are not a sufficient excuse.”

I can tell you from 23 years of married experience that respecting those times will go a lot farther towards a happy relationship than insisting on “regular payments” on a “debt”

I concur entirely.

The notion that it’s a debt to be “paid” to me is an affront to the dignity of the act that is supposed to be a mutual and reciprocal gift of self.

Whether you find the notion an affront or not, it is the truth.

And let me give you a practical example of how this kind of understanding of “debt” can hurtful. A very close friend related to me once how his mother, hospitalized with terminal cancer, felt obligated to go in the ward’s bathroom to satisfy her “debt” as you call it, to her husband, because he insisted on it.

This is a case where it seems reasonable to say that there was sufficient reason to refuse to render the debt. I find the request of the husband to be shameful. However, the action of the wife was a work of (perhaps heroic) virtue, and should not be condemned.

 

[Will_S]

No, another reason to use different vocabulary is the fact that this young wife is suffering serious, long-term damage as a result of past sexual abuse and the term “marital debt” isn’t helpful, even if it’s “traditional.”

It is helpful, because the truth is always helpful. The original poster knows very well that there are legitimate grounds for refusal. The original post was for the purpose of asking if her situation was such grounds. The fact that she needs counseling is, while true, independent of the original question.

To say that the original question is irrelevant, because she doesn’t have a debt or obligation in the first place, would be a lie. While no one has said that explicitly, the aversion to the words “debt” and “obligation” imply that belief.

She is in dire need of good, solid, Catholic counseling to deal with her past trauma before she can begin to see the gift that marital love and intimacy is.

Of course that is true. Who is arguing with that?

 

[Walking_Home]

Bullfeathers. I have no problems with the doctrine and please stop trying to guess what my views on marriage or the faith are, because you are dead wrong. The word “obligation” is in fact less loaded, although also not perfect. “Debt” implies keeping an accounting of how many times accepted balanced against how many times refused, or requiring “regular payments”.

The word “obligation” is less loaded because it leaves room for mutual compromise on how to fulfill that obligation. It leaves room to suppose that there may be times when one or the other in a couple just doesn’t feel like it due to excess fatigue, illness, etc, but with the situation being temporary; your wording and in fact your views imply that even if a wife is ill, she has to submit to her husband’s sexual needs.

I can tell you from 23 years of married experience that respecting those times will go a lot farther towards a happy relationship than insisting on “regular payments” on a “debt”; it’s called self-control, sir. The notion that it’s a debt to be “paid” to me is an affront to the dignity of the act that is supposed to be a mutual and reciprocal gift of self.

The English language evolves, and so too does our understanding and way of expressing of basic truths. “Traditional” does not necessarily imply the need to use fossilized language or psychology for catechesis.

And let me give you a practical example of how this kind of understanding of “debt” can hurtful. A very close friend related to me once how his mother, hospitalized with terminal cancer, felt obligated to go in the ward’s bathroom to satisfy her “debt” as you call it, to her husband, because he insisted on it.

Respectfully, I find that kind of attitude simply disgusting and an affront to human dignity.

---

I agree with your post. And as to what happened to friend’s mother – I will add my disgust to yours. An utterly horrific selfish act on part of your friend’s father.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

"

This is a case where it seems reasonable to say that there was sufficient reason to refuse to render the debt. I find the request of the husband to be shameful. However, the action of the wife was a work of (perhaps heroic) virtue, and should not be condemned.

I’m not sure if it was heroic virtue, or just a symptom of a terrible marriage. She was perhaps trying to avoid her husband falling into lust. But requesting “payment of the marriage debt” from a cancer stricken wife isn’t exactly virtuous.

Sorry if it’s off topic.

 

[Lily85]

. The original post was for the purpose of asking if her situation was such grounds. The fact that she needs counseling is, while true, independent of the original question.

To say that the original question is irrelevant, because she doesn’t have a debt or obligation in the first place, would be a lie. While no one has said that explicitly, the aversion to the words “debt” and “obligation” imply that belief.

QUOTE]

Will, thank you for understanding my meaning throughout your posts, this was my original question. I do understand there is an obligation on both of our parts to fulfull the other for pro-creative, unitive, and “concupisence” reasons. I know its not something to be taken lightly, which I believe is why it says in the confession booklet not to “refuse your spouse their marital rights without just cause.”

I know I have issues that need addressed. I understand it’s not supposed to be this way. In the meantime I just wanted some opinions on whether my situation is a just cause. I felt that it is a just cause for me to ask that we reduce frequency etc until it feels less devestating, yet I realize the importance of this act in marriage and just wanted to be sure.

Anyway, I will be talking with him about it this weekend. I really hope I didn’t give the wrong impression of him. A few people mentioned, or perhaps implied, he seems abusive. He is not, and I cringed to read that thinking I explained the situation poorly to cause people to think that about him. I truly would marry him again, and I know he’d still pick me. As much as I don’t want to deal with this it’s getting too painful not to. We do have a good strong relationship with God and with each other.

Thanks for all the replies. They really do help.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

You truly need counseling and therapy to overcome the residuals of that sexual abuse that you suffered as a child.

You did NOT just “move on”, you suppressed the rage, the bitterness, and horror of what happened to you. Those feeling were never dealt with in a healthy way, and now they are poisoning sexual relations, and all contact, with your husband.

You will eventually kill your marriage if this continues. It will get worse, over time you will no longer want any degree of touching, even non-sexual touching, no kissing, nothing at all. You are closing yourself off from the normal and natural expressions of love between a husband and wife. Sadly, this will not stop and hating sex, it WILL progress to eventually hating him, because every time he has any contact with you it brings all of those old feeling into your thoughts.

Please, for your own sake, and for your marriage and family, get into a good therapy program designed for victims of sexual abuse. Do this before you end up destroying what you are trying so hard to build.

 

[dixieagle]

Will S;8419291:

. The original post was for the purpose of asking if her situation was such grounds. The fact that she needs counseling is, while true, independent of the original question.

To say that the original question is irrelevant, because she doesn’t have a debt or obligation in the first place, would be a lie. While no one has said that explicitly, the aversion to the words “debt” and “obligation” imply that belief.

QUOTE]

Will, thank you for understanding my meaning throughout your posts, this was my original question. I do understand there is an obligation on both of our parts to fulfull the other for pro-creative, unitive, and “concupisence” reasons. I know its not something to be taken lightly, which I believe is why it says in the confession booklet not to “refuse your spouse their marital rights without just cause.”

I know I have issues that need addressed. I understand it’s not supposed to be this way. In the meantime I just wanted some opinions on whether my situation is a just cause. I felt that it is a just cause for me to ask that we reduce frequency etc until it feels less devestating, yet I realize the importance of this act in marriage and just wanted to be sure.

Anyway, I will be talking with him about it this weekend. I really hope I didn’t give the wrong impression of him. A few people mentioned, or perhaps implied, he seems abusive. He is not, and I cringed to read that thinking I explained the situation poorly to cause people to think that about him. I truly would marry him again, and I know he’d still pick me. As much as I don’t want to deal with this it’s getting too painful not to. We do have a good strong relationship with God and with each other.

Thanks for all the replies. They really do help.

So glad that you are going to talk to him. As so many people have posted (some, I think, with some personal experience/knowledge of sexual abuse issues) it is simply imperative that you do whatever you can to pursue good, Catholic counseling. I’m sorry that this will be difficult, due to your location, but it is clearly necessary.

Yours is a special, very sensitive situation, and the short answer to your question would - IMHO - be that you do, indeed, have a “just” reason while you work through your problems. It is also important that your husband thoroughly understand and be on board with this; any good husband would.

God bless!

 

[ringil]

You truly need counseling and therapy to overcome the residuals of that sexual abuse that you suffered as a child.

You did NOT just “move on”, you suppressed the rage, the bitterness, and horror of what happened to you. Those feeling were never dealt with in a healthy way, and now they are poisoning sexual relations, and all contact, with your husband.

You will eventually kill your marriage if this continues. It will get worse, over time you will no longer want any degree of touching, even non-sexual touching, no kissing, nothing at all. You are closing yourself off from the normal and natural expressions of love between a husband and wife. Sadly, this will not stop and hating sex, it WILL progress to eventually hating him, because every time he has any contact with you it brings all of those old feeling into your thoughts.

Please, for your own sake, and for your marriage and family, get into a good therapy program designed for victims of sexual abuse. Do this before you end up destroying what you are trying so hard to build.

Seconded.

 

[ringil]

But, seriously, what man would make love with his wife while she is crying?!? Oh, and I am a husband. I feel comfortable in assuming the the other husbands in this thread or wives here couldn’t imagine their husbands doing this.

 

[Cat]

But, seriously, what man would make love with his wife while she is crying?!? Oh, and I am a husband. I feel comfortable in assuming the the other husbands in this thread or wives here couldn’t imagine their husbands doing this.

It’s possible that her husband might think that she is experiencing such sublime ecstasy that it moves her to tears.

This has happened to me before (I am a woman). I have read about it happening to other women, and I have seen movies (not porn, but romantic movies) in which this happens to the heroine.

So her husband might believe that he is pleasing his beloved and have no idea that he is terrifying her.

BTW, to the OP, I add my pleas to all the others on this thread who say that you need to seek counselling. You can heal, and things will be better. Don’t wait another day. You deserve to be happy in your marriage, and so does your sweet husband.

 

[valient_Lucy]

You need to get counseling. ASAP.

Ask your priest tomorrow if he knows of any good Catholic counselors. You don’t have to tell him why, just tell him you want to talk to someone.

If you can’t do that, call your doctor on Monday and ask for a referral to a counselor.

 

[valient_Lucy]

But, seriously, what man would make love with his wife while she is crying?!? Oh, and I am a husband. I feel comfortable in assuming the the other husbands in this thread or wives here couldn’t imagine their husbands doing this.

I’m glad I had to think before I posted. I remembered hearing about how men respond to their partner’s rape. They tend to make two mistakes. The first is they have absolutely no physical contact with her, because they don’t want to scare her. Unfortunately, the woman can sometimes think she’s damaged goods. The second is the man might try to compel his partner to return to sexual relations before she is ready not out of selfishness but because he wants to help her return to normal.

I think the OP and her husband were sadly misinformed somwehere along the way. To be blunt, the priest who did their marriage prep failed miserably. However, we can’t go back, we can only go forward.

But again, the OP and her husband must get counseling (when a man’s wife is raped, he is called a secondary victim) before their marriage is destroyed.

 

[valient_Lucy]

You truly need counseling and therapy to overcome the residuals of that sexual abuse that you suffered as a child.

You did NOT just “move on”, you suppressed the rage, the bitterness, and horror of what happened to you. Those feeling were never dealt with in a healthy way, and now they are poisoning sexual relations, and all contact, with your husband.

You will eventually kill your marriage if this continues. It will get worse, over time you will no longer want any degree of touching, even non-sexual touching, no kissing, nothing at all. You are closing yourself off from the normal and natural expressions of love between a husband and wife. Sadly, this will not stop and hating sex, it WILL progress to eventually hating him, because every time he has any contact with you it brings all of those old feeling into your thoughts.

Please, for your own sake, and for your marriage and family, get into a good therapy program designed for victims of sexual abuse. Do this before you end up destroying what you are trying so hard to build.

Seconded.

Thirded

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I agree with the recommendation that you need to be counseled about it, what you went through was terrible and hurts you to this day

What you need right now is intimacy, emotional, spiritual, and physical intimacy, but not sexual intimacy