What is absolute truth?

[Bahman]

1. It is complete meaning it does not need any axiom
2. It is constantly changing in its form on the surface but not underneath meaning that the forms are free where as underneath is solid and without change
3. It is not divisible hence the existence in general is attached
4. Existence of beings is essential intrinsically, nothing is created or is borne
5. Everything exists but it solely appears depending on necessity of subject matter to guarantee the changes which is necessary, so called time, which is what happens on the surface
6. There is neither any beginning nor any end

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Correct your spelling for “absolout”?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Absolute truth is God, the rays of whose love emanates that truth throughout the universe. We comprehend that truth in greater or lesser degrees according to our own capacity for love. Some of us are blind to the absolute truth because our hearts are much more filled with hate than with love. Get past the hate and you close in on the truth.

 

[simpleas]

6 ) There is neither any beginning nor any end​

I was thinking something like this the other day. God has no beginning and no end, and I thought much could be said about us too.

 

[KingCoil]

What is absolute truth?

May I just request that we first work on what is truth?

You see, when you and I that is we bring in a term that is composed of two or more words, and we want to work together to concur on what is the meaning of that term, in the present context, absolute truth, we must concur on every word in the composite term, in the present context, absolute truth.

So, what do you say, guys here, shall we work first on what is truth?

Would you want me to start the ball rolling with what I mean by the word truth?

quote ]

Okay, tell me, Oh Christian, what do you mean by self-evident truth; even your Savior was asked that question by Pilate, and it seems Pilate didn’t bother to wait for the Savior to answer, I guess Pilate did not think he should waste his time with more words and concepts from Jesus to no purpose at hand.

quote ]
Originally Posted by John 18:37-38
37Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” 38Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them, "I find no guilt in Him.…
unquote ]

So, dear ynotzap, no talk, just show how you and I can be certain that you and I exist, by some other means than talking, in particular not about socalled self-evident truth.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12027405&postcount=377

unquote ]​

Here, I will hazard a concept of what is truth: it is a human certainty on the existence of a fact.

So, now we have to work on what is a human certainty and what is a fact.

Now I will just in my own wording present what I understand by a human certainty and what by a fact.

A human certainty is for example that we know from our experience that there is a nose in our face, a fact is something that we know to exist, and we are sure because we can see it existing by sighting it or touching it or hearing it, etc.

Do you get my meanings of what is human certainty and what is a fact?

Unless we concur on what is human certainty and what is fact, we cannot eventually come to concur on what is absolute truth.

Do not be deterred by too much work for the sake of concurring on the meaning of absolute truth, it is not going to be endless work when we always go finally to the our experiences, yours and mine, instead of working futilely on and on again, on words and concepts, and avoid coming to our life of experiences.

KingCoil

 

[rossum]

What is absolute truth?

Whatever it is it cannot be expressed in any human language. No human language is absolute. What is the absolute unchanging meaning of the word “elf”?

• elf (English) = a mythical humanoid.
• elf (Deutsch) = 11.

Where is the absolute meaning?

Maybe Vimalakirti came closer:

Then the Bodhisattva Manjushri said to Vimalakirti, “We have all given our teachings, noble sir. Now, may you elucidate the teaching of the the entrance into the principle of nonduality.”

Thereupon Vimalakirti kept his silence, saying nothing at all.

The Bodhisattva Manjushri applauded Vimalakirti: “Excellent! Excellent, noble sir! This is indeed the entrance into the nonduality of the Bodhisattvas.”

– Vimalakirtinirdesa sutra, Chapter Nine

or perhaps, Saint John of the Cross:

“Nada, nada, nada. Y en el monte, nada.”

rossum

 

[Bahman]

What is absolute truth?

May I just request that we first work on what is truth?

You see, when you and I that is we bring in a term that is composed of two or more words, and we want to work together to concur on what is the meaning of that term, in the present context, absolute truth, we must concur on every word in the composite term, in the present context, absolute truth.

So, what do you say, guys here, shall we work first on what is truth?

Would you want me to start the ball rolling with what I mean by the word truth?

quote ]

Okay, tell me, Oh Christian, what do you mean by self-evident truth; even your Savior was asked that question by Pilate, and it seems Pilate didn’t bother to wait for the Savior to answer, I guess Pilate did not think he should waste his time with more words and concepts from Jesus to no purpose at hand.

quote ]
Originally Posted by John 18:37-38
37Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” 38Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them, "I find no guilt in Him.…
unquote ]

So, dear ynotzap, no talk, just show how you and I can be certain that you and I exist, by some other means than talking, in particular not about socalled self-evident truth.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12027405&postcount=377

unquote ]​

Here, I will hazard a concept of what is truth: it is a human certainty on the existence of a fact.

So, now we have to work on what is a human certainty and what is a fact.

Now I will just in my own wording present what I understand by a human certainty and what by a fact.

A human certainty is for example that we know from our experience that there is a nose in our face, a fact is something that we know to exist, and we are sure because we can see it existing by sighting it or touching it or hearing it, etc.

Do you get my meanings of what is human certainty and what is a fact?

Unless we concur on what is human certainty and what is fact, we cannot eventually come to concur on what is absolute truth.

Do not be deterred by too much work for the sake of concurring on the meaning of absolute truth, it is not going to be endless work when we always go finally to the our experiences, yours and mine, instead of working futilely on and on again, on words and concepts, and avoid coming to our life of experiences.
KingCoil

First, the truth is the human certainty on trueness of an axiom deduced from experience.

Second, fact is a logical statement which allows us to explain the subject matter based on accepted axiom namely truth.

Third, philosophical framework is a consistent set of facts and axioms which can properly explain all feature of subject matter well.

I am looking to here from you. I am completely open to discuss things further and change things appropriately as I am currently contemplating on the subject matter.

 

[Bahman]

Whatever it is it cannot be expressed in any human language. No human language is absolute. What is the absolute unchanging meaning of the word “elf”?

• elf (English) = a mythical humanoid.
• elf (Deutsch) = 11.

Where is the absolute meaning?

Maybe Vimalakirti came closer:

Then the Bodhisattva Manjushri said to Vimalakirti, “We have all given our teachings, noble sir. Now, may you elucidate the teaching of the the entrance into the principle of nonduality.”

Thereupon Vimalakirti kept his silence, saying nothing at all.

The Bodhisattva Manjushri applauded Vimalakirti: “Excellent! Excellent, noble sir! This is indeed the entrance into the nonduality of the Bodhisattvas.”

– Vimalakirtinirdesa sutra, Chapter Nine

or perhaps, Saint John of the Cross:

“Nada, nada, nada. Y en el monte, nada.”

rossum

Please read previous post.

 

[rossum]

First, the truth is the human certainty on trueness of an axiom deduced from experience.

“Human certainty”. How many humans are certain that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is His prophet? Humans are prone to error, so human certainty is a very uncertain basis on which to build absolute truth.

Axioms derived from experience are also less than absolute. An Inuit’s experience tells her that the earth is cold, with a lot of snow and ice. A Saudi Arabian’s experience is very different; less snow more sand. Both have valid experiences, but neither is the absolute truth. Again, a very shaky foundation.

Second, fact is a logical statement which allows us to explain the subject matter based on accepted axiom namely truth.

You have made a logical error here. If you are trying to define truth, then you cannot have truth as one of your axioms. If you do that then you have a circular argument. If I adopt the axiom that all CA posters owe me $100 then I can logically prove that all CA posters owe me $100. Have you checks (or cheques) in the post soon please.

rossum

 

[Bahman]

“Human certainty”. How many humans are certain that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is His prophet? Humans are prone to error, so human certainty is a very uncertain basis on which to build absolute truth.

Axioms derived from experience are also less than absolute. An Inuit’s experience tells her that the earth is cold, with a lot of snow and ice. A Saudi Arabian’s experience is very different; less snow more sand. Both have valid experiences, but neither is the absolute truth. Again, a very shaky foundation.

You have made a logical error here. If you are trying to define truth, then you cannot have truth as one of your axioms. If you do that then you have a circular argument. If I adopt the axiom that all CA posters owe me $100 then I can logically prove that all CA posters owe me $100. Have you checks (or cheques) in the post soon please.

rossum

Let me give you another example: A1) Knife is sharp, A2) Meat is soft, F) Knife can cut meat, by which A means axiom and F means fact.

 

[rossum]

Let me give you another example: A1) Knife is sharp, A2) Meat is soft, F) Knife can cut meat, by which A means axiom and F means fact.

Water can be soft or hard. Can a knife cut soft water but not hard water?

What if the water is ice? Can a knife cut ice? What if the ice if made from soft water?

Finding absolute truth in human language will not be an easy task.

How about 1 + 1 = 10?

How about 一 + 一 = 二 ? (In case the characters don’t display, that looks a lot like - + - = =)

rossum

 

[Bahman]

Water can be soft or hard. Can a knife cut soft water but not hard water?

What if the water is ice? Can a knife cut ice? What if the ice if made from soft water?

No, because you are adding another axioms with new properties. F1) Knife can penetrate in the water and F2) Knife can break the ice.

Finding absolute truth in human language will not be an easy task.

I didn’t say that it is easy but I am open to discussion.

How about 1 + 1 = 10?

No, because you didn’t fully defined your operator! What is 1+10=?

How about 一 + 一 = 二 ? (In case the characters don’t display, that looks a lot like - + - = =)

No, again. Please read the previous comment and read some linear algebra here.

 

[empther]

1. It is complete meaning it does not need any axiom

Meaning is an explanation of truth but is not the truth itself since an explanation can be false.

1. It is constantly changing in its form on the surface but not underneath meaning that the forms are free where as underneath is solid and without change

Absolute truth cannot change in any way or it isn’t the truth.

1. It is not divisible hence the existence in general is attached

Truth is not a substance except in God and so nothing is attached to it.

1. Existence of beings is essential intrinsically, nothing is created or is borne

Beings that can change must be created, and do not necessarily exist.

1. Everything exists but it solely appears depending on necessity of subject matter to guarantee the changes which is necessary, so called time, which is what happens on the surface

As completely meaningless a statement as can be written.

1. There is neither any beginning nor any end

Anything that can change must have a beginning, but it doesn’t necessarily end if God keeps it in existence forever.

 

[rossum]

No, because you are adding another axioms with new properties. F1) Knife can penetrate in the water and F2) Knife can break the ice.

I am adding the new axiom “Water can be soft or hard”.

No, because you didn’t fully defined your operator! What is 1+10=?

Do you know what “binary arithmetic” means. In some contexts, 1 + 1 = 10 is true. In other contexts it is false. There is no absolute truth in the statement, instead the statement can be false, true or meaningless depending on the context in which it is found.

How can you find absolute truth in a statement which may, or may not be true? 1 + 1 = 2 is meaningless in binary arithmetic because the symbol “2” has no meaning.

rossum

 

[Bahman]

Meaning is an explanation of truth but is not the truth itself since an explanation can be false.

Absolute truth cannot change in any way or it isn’t the truth.

Truth is not a substance except in God and so nothing is attached to it.

Beings that can change must be created, and do not necessarily exist.

As completely meaningless a statement as can be written.

Anything that can change must have a beginning, but it doesn’t necessarily end if God keeps it in existence forever.

So please read post #5 and #7 and see how the discussion follows. I will return to your points later.

 

[Bahman]

I am adding the new axiom “Water can be soft or hard”.

Relative to what?

Do you know what “binary arithmetic” means. In some contexts, 1 + 1 = 10 is true. In other contexts it is false. There is no absolute truth in the statement, instead the statement can be false, true or meaningless depending on the context in which it is found.

How can you find absolute truth in a statement which may, or may not be true? 1 + 1 = 2 is meaningless in binary arithmetic because the symbol “2” has no meaning.

rossum

I know binary arithmetic, linear algebra, set theory, etc.

You can define a set such as

{1,10,5} with one operator + such that 1+1=10, 1+10=5, 5+10=1, 10+10=1, etc. so the set is completely well defined as the elements and operator is well defined.

 

[empther]

So please read post #5 and #7 and see how the discussion follows. I will return to your points later.

There’s no need. I won’t.
They were enough to point out that your points are not absolute truth.

 

[rossum]

Relative to what?

Look back to your post #10:

Let me give you another example: A1) Knife is sharp, A2) Meat is soft, F) Knife can cut meat, by which A means axiom and F means fact.

Relative to what were you using the word “soft” in your A2?

Soft may be relative to a scale of hardness, a scale of calcium carbonate content, a scale of integration into hardware (wetware, software, middleware, hardware), degree of erotic content of pornography and other meanings.

That is the problem with a human language. So many words have multiple meanings that you need a dictionary to express the intended meaning of every word or symbol used. Of course, the dictionary itself is composed of words and symbols, so you need a meta-dictionary to give the correct meaning of the dictionary. Now the meta-dictionary is also made from words and symbols and you have an infinite regress. You can never get to the absolute truth, because you always need another meta^(n+1)-dictionary to explain the meta^n-dictionary.

You can define a set such as

{1,10,5} with one operator + such that 1+1=10, 1+10=5, 5+10=1, 10+10=1, etc. so the set is completely well defined as the elements and operator is well defined.

An operator is a person who operated a crane or other piece of machinery. You also need to include a complete listing of the set notation you are using.

rossum

 

[KingCoil]

First, the truth is the human certainty on trueness of an axiom deduced from experience.

Second, fact is a logical statement which allows us to explain the subject matter based on accepted axiom namely truth.

Third, philosophical framework is a consistent set of facts and axioms which can properly explain all feature of subject matter well.

I am looking to here from you. I am completely open to discuss things further and change things appropriately as I am currently contemplating on the subject matter.

I propose that we first work on our experience, then we can talk on the basis of our experience.

What are some examples of our experience of truth?

This might sound silly but it is a genuine experience which any human can and does experience, we experience the truth of the nose in our face.

We experience lying in bed and relaxing.

We experience going to work in the morning and returning home in the evening.

These are examples of truths of which on the basis of our experience we are sure that they are facts.

Wherefore, truth is a fact we are sure to exist, to have existed and will exist again, in our experience.

My point is to bring us to talk on the basis of our experience, and not from an impersonal third person if any person at all, anonymously.

KingCoil

 

[KingCoil]

“Human certainty”. How many humans are certain that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is His prophet? Humans are prone to error, so human certainty is a very uncertain basis on which to build absolute truth.

Axioms derived from experience are also less than absolute. An Inuit’s experience tells her that the earth is cold, with a lot of snow and ice. A Saudi Arabian’s experience is very different; less snow more sand. Both have valid experiences, but neither is the absolute truth. Again, a very shaky foundation.

You have made a logical error here. If you are trying to define truth, then you cannot have truth as one of your axioms. If you do that then you have a circular argument. If I adopt the axiom that all CA posters owe me $100 then I can logically prove that all CA posters owe me $100. Have you checks (or cheques) in the post soon please.

rossum

What do you propose ultimately as the basis of truth if you do not accept experience to be the ultimate basis of truth?

Axioms also must be tested on the basis of experience if they are to be accepted as truths, which truths on their turn must also be founded on experience.

Wherefore, there is no absolute truth, but truth founded on our experience.

Best we don’t qualify or describe any truth with the adjective absolute, just say that we have experiential truths; so that if any human contests a truth we can require him to present specific instances of the truth of which he has no experience, and observe how he answers our question.

KingCoil