What is Calvinism and is it "still around"?

[KathleenGee]

Faithdancer,

Thanks for explaining. I enjoyed reading it and will read it again! and again!

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, PorknPie, for the link to Called to Communion. It is comprised of highly educated people who have been in divinity school, and or were ministers of congregations. They explain things about different denominations from a lived out experience, thus making this site that much more value for study and understanding.

Many articles are not quick reads and require reflection.

Highly recommend it.

 

[Faithdancer]

How many of the modern day Calvinists believe that wealth is a sign that one is elected? Was that a popular sentiment?

Sally, I would turn this around and say that the avaricious accumulation of wealth is a sign that the believer is actually not saved, but rather enslaved to mammon. The teachings throughout Scripture are clear on what the Christian’s attitude toward riches must be. Of course it is to the shame of some that agnostics and atheists such as the Gates and Warren Buffet have pledged to give away vast portions of their wealth to benefit mankind (not that this alone will gain them salvation).

 

[ltwin]

Many Baptist sub-denominations are also Arminian in their soteriology’ some are more hyper-Arminian. I know right away if a congregation is on the hyper-Arminian side if, when I visit for the first time, one or more elders or long-time members will come up to me and then after the name introduction, ask me directly about my salvation experience. It relates to the belief that not only is God’s grace resistable, but human intervention (i.e. intense personal evangelism) is usually necessary to convince someone to accept Christ (I hope that’s not an oversimplification). Anyway next time I see those questions coming, I think I’ll try to ask first, just for fun!

Yeah, I know many Baptists are Arminians too.

It’s funny though. At least when it comes to Southern Baptists, all (whether Calvinist or Arminian) seem to adhere to some form of once saved always saved. While that belief by itself does not make one a Calvinist, it always struck me as odd that Arminian Southern Baptists can believe in free will when it comes to becoming a Christian but not believe in free will when it comes to already being a Christian.

 

[sallybutler]

Sally, I would turn this around and say that the avaricious accumulation of wealth is a sign that the believer is actually not saved, but rather enslaved to mammon. The teachings throughout Scripture are clear on what the Christian’s attitude toward riches must be. Of course it is to the shame of some that agnostics and atheists such as the Gates and Warren Buffet have pledged to give away vast portions of their wealth to benefit mankind (not that this alone will gain them salvation).

I agree with you. However, I was wondering if the belief that doing well was a sign of being elected or redeemed or chosen by God is still held by modern day Calvinists? Maybe not always as a public belief but even as a subconscious belief.

 

[ltwin]

I agree with you. However, I was wondering if the belief that doing well was a sign of being elected or redeemed or chosen by God is still held by modern day Calvinists? Maybe not always as a public belief but even as a subconscious belief.

I believe this was held by the Puritans, but it wasn’t as if it was the only sign. Only one of a number of indications.

Today, many Calvinists are some of the strongest opponents of the prosperity gospel.

 

[Faithdancer]

I agree with you. However, I was wondering if the belief that doing well was a sign of being elected or redeemed or chosen by God is still held by modern day Calvinists? Maybe not always as a public belief but even as a subconscious belief.

Well the Prosperity or “Health and Wealth” doctrine seems to be going strong, if the success of Joel Osteen and others is any indication. I don’t know that the doctrine is based on the older idea that being one of the elect means one is more likely to be financially successful, however, or that wealth is a sign of God’s favor. The current movement has been attacked by some church leaders more on the grounds that it is quasi-works, to the best of my understanding.

Although I don’t usually tout Wikipedia as a reliable source, in this case there is what appears to be a comprehensive, balanced and well-written article at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

 

[Faithdancer]

Today, many Calvinists are some of the strongest opponents of the prosperity gospel.

Yes. John Macarthur, not known for his reticence, has gone so far as to label the prosperity gospel satanic. Al Mohler also appears to be strongly critical as does, interestingly enough, John Piper.

To paraphrase Donnie Swaggert: “Christ didn’t come to die so that I could get a Cadillac.”

 

[Faithdancer]

I believe this was held by the Puritans, but it wasn’t as if it was the only sign. Only one of a number of indications.

There was a bit of a resurgence of this during the “born again” explosion during the 70s and 80s, wasn’t there? Particularly among the upper middle class, perhaps. As I recall I started hearing about it more in connection with big televangelists. Do you think it morphed into the prosperity gospel?

Parenthetically and personally, I think a more sure indication that one is saved is the irresistible drive toward continuous repentance. I guess that’s kind of the opposite of the feel-good, health-wealth idea? Not that I think repentance is “feel-bad;” I think it’s actually liberating. As a Catholic I was scrupulous, however- not healthy.

 

[ltwin]

There was a bit of a resurgence of this during the “born again” explosion during the 70s and 80s, wasn’t there? Particularly among the upper middle class, perhaps. As I recall I started hearing about it more in connection with big televangelists. Do you think it morphed into the prosperity gospel?

Well, in the 1950s, many Pentecostal healing evangelists began to emphasize prosperity teachings. Eventually, that leads to Joel Osteen and TBN.

However, Pentecostals are the farthest thing from Calvinism. Modern-day prosperity theology grows out of Pentecostal teachings on divine healing with a bit of 19th century New Thought metaphysical mumbo-jumbo thrown in for good measure.

E. W. Kenyon, a Baptist minister, seems to be the link between Pentecostalism and New Thought. He was clearly exposed to New Thought metaphysics while at Emerson College, and much of this comes through his devotional literature which was widely read by Pentecostal faith healers who then disseminated these teachings in their healing revivals.

By the 1950s, America was experiencing unparalleled prosperity and Pentecostal preaching reflected this. By the 1960s, the focus had shifted from healing to prosperity.

 

[sallybutler]

The prosperity gospel always strikes me as little kids approaching Santa Claus. Ask for a particular thing and God will give it to you.

I was thinking more along the line of are members of the elect based on their social standing and/or financial standing.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Wesleyan/Methodist and its Holiness/Pentecostal offshoots for the most part don’t have Calvinist roots.

I don’t understand Protestant history very well, but I thought that Wesleyans/Methodists did come from Calvinism. Didn’t the Methodists come out Anglicanism, which is Reformed? And aren’t they Arminian? I thought Arminianism branched off from the Calvinists (Arminius, the Remonstrances, the Synod of Dort and all that). Am I wrong about Methodists origin?

 

[ltwin]

I don’t understand Protestant history very well, but I thought that Wesleyans/Methodists did come from Calvinism. Didn’t the Methodists come out Anglicanism, which is Reformed? And aren’t they Arminian? I thought Arminianism branched off from the Calvinists (Arminius, the Remonstrances, the Synod of Dort and all that). Am I wrong about Methodists origin?

Not really wrong. I guess you could say that Arminianism is a split-off of Calvinism. The Dutch Reformed obviously saw it as a heresy that could not coexist with their own theology. But Arminian theologians like Roger E. Olson have a different perspective. They see Arminianism as simply a return to something closer to what the Church had always believed before Calvinism took root.

While Anglicanism has Reformed elements, John Wesley was not a Calvinist. In fact, the Church of England at the time was predominantly Arminian. George Whitefield was a Calvinist, but today the only Calvinistic Methodists exist as a tiny group in Great Britain.

I don’t think the Church of England was ever purely Calvinist in theology. So, I don’t think it’s incorrect to say that Methodism is an offshoot of Anglican High Church evangelicalism (with a blend of continental pietism) rather than Calvinism. But that’s just me.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

So you would say that Methodism has “Calvinist roots” in a very broad sense?

 

[ltwin]

So you would say that Methodism has “Calvinist roots” in a very broad sense?

I won’t deny that Calvinism influenced it. But I think it’s way too simplistic to say that virtually all Protestantism is a direct off-shoot of Calvinism.

The “via media” of Anglicanism (it’s “middle way”) was not, as most people believe, between Protestantism and Catholicism. Anglicanism as defined by the Elizabethan settlement was a middle way between Lutheranism and Reformed theology. So, the Calvinist influence on Wesleyanism was already a diluted influence.

In short, it’s complicated. I wouldn’t be comfortable saying it’s an offshoot of Calvinism without a bunch of qualifiers because that’s, in my opinion, deceptively simplistic.

 

[ltwin]

In short, it’s complicated. I wouldn’t be comfortable saying it’s an offshoot of Calvinism without a bunch of qualifiers because that’s, in my opinion, deceptively simplistic.

It’s also possible that I just don’t like Calvinism and don’t want my tradition to be labeled a Calvinist offshoot.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

It’s also possible that I just don’t like Calvinism and don’t want my tradition to be labeled a Calvinist offshoot.

 

[Faithdancer]

It’s also possible that I just don’t like Calvinism and don’t want my tradition to be labeled a Calvinist offshoot.

Interesting that the black Pentecostals today have the greatest worship music, imho. Not to mention all that movement (I’m a dancer, obviously). Would that be altogether too much enjoyment for hardline Calvinists?