What is modernism?

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Hello OTJM.
When it comes to Modernism in regards to the Church, we are left with vagueness. Saying that Modernism embraces every heresy is to say next to nothing; it is an attempt to provide a blanket definition as to the source or inter-relatedness of all heresy. That leaves one with not more than vague generalities…
While I agree with some of what you’ve stated, I need to remind you that a Saint who was also a Pope was the person who said that Modernism was a synthesis of all heresies which is much more meaningful then as you say, “next to nothing.” Perhaps you’d like to re-word your statement. There is not much that I find vague in the Encyclical. Do you mean from another source? Can you clarify?

Glenda
 
Hello Tarpeian.
I don’t want to misunderstand you. Are you saying that you believe epilepsy is a demonic matter and not a medical issue? Are you saying that things like bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, personality disorders and such are cases of demonic possession and not medical issues? It is my understanding that the church requires extensive medical and psychiatric evaluations before considering a case for possible referral to an exorcist. I don’t think the number of exorcists is a fair way to evaluate whether a country has been affected by modernism, but that’s just me.
How can you twist my words around so much? I said the exact opposite of what you said and only repeated some of the Modernist errors. The OP wanted examples of how they, the Modernists, have effected things. I gave an example. Why attack me and twist my words. All I did was answer the question.

Please re-read what I wrote and take it slowly.

Thanks and God bless,

Glenda
 
Hello Tarpeian.

How can you twist my words around so much? I said the exact opposite of what you said and only repeated some of the Modernist errors. The OP wanted examples of how they, the Modernists, have effected things. I gave an example. Why attack me and twist my words. All I did was answer the question.

Please re-read what I wrote and take it slowly.

Thanks and God bless,

Glenda
I have read it over several times and it is still not clear to me what you’re trying to say, and I consider myself pretty good at reading and analysis. In fact your statement says:
The Modernists relegated all things demonic to mental or physical illness and it no longer is seen as the realm of their church which refers all things of a suspect nature to psychologists, psychiatrists and doctors (as in the case of epilepsy).
Could you please clarify for our benefit? Because it sure sounds like you are making the case that epilepsy isn’t a medical issue but is an issue of demonic possession. Thanks.
 
Hello Ora.
I have read it over several times and it is still not clear to me what you’re trying to say, and I consider myself pretty good at reading and analysis. In fact your statement says:

Could you please clarify for our benefit? Because it sure sounds like you are making the case that epilepsy isn’t a medical issue but is an issue of demonic possession. Thanks.
The part of my statement you quote clearly states that it is the Modernists who relegated all things demonic to mental illness or epilepsy. * The Modernists*. Not me. Unless of course you think I’m a Modernist in which my notation of their doings would apply to me, but why not just come out and say “Gee, Glenda, I think you’re a Modernist too!” Hello???

Glenda
 
Modernism is seeing Church doctrine as a mere ‘starting point’ upon which to build a Church that appears ‘more relevant’ and acceptable to the social norms of secular society. Modernism is a heresy that is hard to pin down as modernists do not outwardly reject Church doctrines, but build upon them in a manner that runs counter to existing Church tradition. Modernists reject traditions of the Church and see these merely as the ancient roots of where we have grown, rather than part of what we actually are today. Modernists do not see reform within the Church as a continuous process in the light of tradition, they see reform as a break with the past. Modernists essentially want to create a new Church from within. As Pope Pius X said, modernism is the synthesis of all heresies.
 
I have read it over several times and it is still not clear to me what you’re trying to say, and I consider myself pretty good at reading and analysis. In fact your statement says:

Could you please clarify for our benefit? Because it sure sounds like you are making the case that epilepsy isn’t a medical issue but is an issue of demonic possession. Thanks.
I think I see whats going on here. At first I read glendab’s statement as saying that modernists started treating epilepsy and such things as medical issues rather than as demonic issues as though it were a bad thing to do so. But after looking at it more closely I think what glendab was actually saying is that modernists tried to claim that there is no such thing as a real demonic issue, if it looks like a demonic issue, it must just really be some other mental/psychological issue instead. Do I have that right glendab?
 
Hello OTJM.

While I agree with some of what you’ve stated, I need to remind you that a Saint who was also a Pope was the person who said that Modernism was a synthesis of all heresies which is much more meaningful then as you say, “next to nothing.” Perhaps you’d like to re-word your statement. There is not much that I find vague in the Encyclical. Do you mean from another source? Can you clarify?

Glenda
I am well aware that he is a saint; but that doe not mean that everything he ever stated was perfectly clear. A comment made last week (or 2) in Our Sunday Visitor could make this clear; about John Paul it said that he (john Paul) was being canonized; not his period in office. Look at the post before yours - M Dent; he is correct that the problem Pius was dealing with was rooted in agnosticism. Alfred Loisy, a priest, was excommunicated (there was another whose name I can’t dredge up right now) and I think Loisy died that way. A goodly portion of what was stirring at the time had to do with biblical scholarship; Protestant theologians had lead the way od deconstruction and it was infecting some within the Church.

I have read Pius’s work, and I cannot make a clear definition of it (and doing research, you will find repeated comments about it being vague as to any clear definition). And I have a degree in philosophy and another in law, so it is not like I am just wandering around loose.

After Pius X, there was much ado in the upper echelons of the Church; theologians were censored (and a number of them rehabilitated). The Church appeared under attack (and it was from some points) but the result was that legitimate scholarship was in part derailed, and for lack of a better term, the reaction was too broad. One needs to keep in mind that certain Cardinals attempted to stop Vatican 2 before it got started; that they produced one round of documents that were turned down, and then the documents we have were put forth.

From the time of Pius X forward, there were both radical right and radical left elements within the Church. And as has been said repeatedly, where there is error, there is normally some truth. The radical left was falling into error; however, the radical right was so over-reacting to error that the net of their position seemed to be that no new formulations of anything could be possibly true. That may be a bit overstatement, but the attitude in the upper echelons of the Church prior to Vatican 2 was in some aspects similar to McCarthyism.

The problem I have is that people with no formal training in theology sound off with the cry of “modernism” when that is totally inappropriate; they cannot give a definition of it, but they absolutely don’t like what they are attacking and they drag that word out as if it answers all objections.

Read the documents of Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI and you are going to find that they define errors without using the term "modernism’. They define the source of the errors, such as liberalism, relativism, secularism, and etc., which give far more clear indications of the source of the errors they address, than giving a broad, sweeping label which in fact doesn’t address the source of the error.

And as to saying that modernism is a synthesis of all errors, I disagree; plenty of errors have occurred which were not rooted in agnosticism. Pius X was trying to address a number of problems; I think the Church would have been better served if he had identified the roots of the problems rather than trying to synthesize an overall response to it. And that has nothing to do whatsoever as to his sainthood - he was awesome.
 
Hello Ora.

The part of my statement you quote clearly states that it is the Modernists who relegated all things demonic to mental illness or epilepsy. * The Modernists*. Not me. Unless of course you think I’m a Modernist in which my notation of their doings would apply to me, but why not just come out and say “Gee, Glenda, I think you’re a Modernist too!” Hello???

Glenda
See that’s the thing. When it comes to, at least epilepsy, the “modernists” (whatever they are) are right. It’s got nothing to do with demonic possession, it’s a medical issue. For example epileptic seizures are quite common with folks who have cerebral palsy. So I, and I presume others, found it odd that you would throw in epilepsy with demonic possession when pointing out the errors of the “modernists”.
 
See that’s the thing. When it comes to, at least epilepsy, the “modernists” (whatever they are) are right. It’s got nothing to do with demonic possession, it’s a medical issue. For example epileptic seizures are quite common with folks who have cerebral palsy. So I, and I presume others, found it odd that you would throw in epilepsy with demonic possession when pointing out the errors of the “modernists”.
Yes, if what glendab was implying was that all or even most epileptic events are really just a case of demonic possession then I would agree with you. However I’m fairly certain that all that glendab meant was that modernists tried to explain away all cases of demonic possession by claiming they are just another manifestation of a mental/psychological problem. This really would be an issue as our faith does teach that cases of demonic possession do occur, even if they are not a regular occurrence. Does that make things clearer at all?
 
Hello Ora.
See that’s the thing. When it comes to, at least epilepsy, the “modernists” (whatever they are) are right. It’s got nothing to do with demonic possession, it’s a medical issue. For example epileptic seizures are quite common with folks who have cerebral palsy. So I, and I presume others, found it odd that you would throw in epilepsy with demonic possession when pointing out the errors of the “modernists”.
Thank you for trying to understand what I wrote. I feel that it is a Modernist error that attempted to eliminate belief in things demonic and that they attribute things of a demonic nature to mental illness or epilepsy. That is what I wrote and that is what I meant. I did not state that epilepsy isn’t a medical issue nor did I say that those suffering from a metal illness are* all *cases of demonic possession. I feel that is an unfair twist of my words. And it is actually an justification that the Modernists use to refute our teaching about the demonic.

I will elaborate my position. There is a real loss in numbers of persons who are Ordained and fulfill their Ministry in the Church as Exorcists. This is a historical fact. It is the truth. It to me, (as well as a few others) is proof that the Modernist errors actually did advance as those of St. Pius’ time warned it would. St. Leo actually had a “vision” of the devil having his way with the people of God for a time and that is why he gave us the St. Michael Prayer as well as a few other defenses and ordered that it be used. Now, since most here would agree that the best lie the devil ever told was that he wasn’t real, those who go about trying to convince ordinary folks that he (the devil) is just a part of the Medieval past are doing the devil’s work. It is simple logic. And that is one of the errors of the Modernists and it is known not only by me but by others.

The OP asked for an example of how the Modernist’s errors could be demonstrated and so I wrote what I wrote. Now, I am no expert on anything except bagels and cream cheese and do not claim to be. But I do have a few opinions about stuff and know a few things or two about my Church. I’ll admit to those of a sheltered nature will look at what I said and claim alarmist or worse. That is okay. I’ve been called worse. But it is simply my opinion and it is shared by others and all I’m doing is stating it.

Glenda
 
I think Fr. Hardon’s dictionary has the best nutshell definition of Modernism:

A theory about the origin and nature of Christianity, first developed into a system by George Tyrrell (1861-1909), Lucien Laberthonnière (1860-1932), and Alfred Loisy (1857-1940). According to Modernism, religion is essentially a matter of experience, personal and collective. There is no objective revelation from God to the human race, on which Christianity is finally based, nor any reasonable grounds for credibility in the Christian faith, based on miracles or the testimony of history. Faith, therefore, is uniquely from within. In fact it is part of human nature, “a kind of motion of the heart,” hidden and unconscious. It is, in Modernist terms, a natural instinct belonging to the emotions, a “feeling for the divine” that cannot be expressed in words or doctrinal propositions, an attitude of spirit that all people have naturally but that some are more aware of having. Modernism was condemned by Pope St. Pius X in two formal documents, Lamentabili and Pascendi, both published in 1907. (Etym. Latin modernus, belonging to the present fashion.)
catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34926

See also the definition of Neo-Modernism:

The movement attempts to reconcile modern science and philosophy at the expense of the integrity of the Catholic faith. It has its roots in the Modernism condemned by Pope St. Pius X. Like its predecessor, it rejects belief in the supernatural and considers the Church only a human society. Among the main features of Neo-Modernism are the denial of original sin, the claim that Christ was only a human person, and that dogmas of faith are only verbal formulations whose meaning substantially changes with the times. In Neo-Modernism, the philosophies of Hegel and Heidegger replace that of St. Thomas Aquinas, and faith is reduced to a purely subjective experience, apart from an objective divine revelation and independent of the magisterium or teaching authority of the Church.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35093
 
Hello Ora.
Thank you for trying to understand what I wrote. I feel that it is a Modernist error that attempted to eliminate belief in things demonic and that they attribute things of a demonic nature to mental illness or epilepsy. That is what I wrote and that is what I meant. I did not state that epilepsy isn’t a medical issue nor did I say that those suffering from a metal illness are* all *cases of demonic possession. I feel that is an unfair twist of my words. And it is actually an justification that the Modernists use to refute our teaching about the demonic.
OK thanks for taking the time to clarify. This makes more sense to me.

I’ll admit that having been trained and educated as scientist I tend to have a fair degree of skepticism when it comes to demonic possession; the brain is sort of the “last frontier” of medical science and we still have lots to learn. I don’t argue against its possibility, but would argue for the exploration all medical/psychiatric avenues before attempting exorcism. Which is what the Church does in any case so I guess I’m on more or less the same wavelength.

My take on “modernism” is a bit like a good atheist friend of mine. He has to try to rationalize everything. He’s pretty good at explaining the “how” but never the “why”. Taken strictly on a rational level, Jesus just becomes a sort of cool historical rebel, which of course is nonsense. Without His divine nature, Christianity becomes an absurdity.

I do firmly believe that we cannot rationalize everything, and that science and faith are compatible and complementary. In fact I would argue that science without faith is probably the worst possible danger to humanity.
 
I think Fr. Hardon’s dictionary has the best nutshell definition of Modernism:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34926

See also the definition of Neo-Modernism:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35093
And neither of which pertains to Mass in the vernacular, Mass facing the people, CITH,EMHC, altar girls, music other than Gregorian chant, musical instruments other than the organ, the expanded sign of peace, laity using the orans position, or holding hands during the Our Father, just to name a few “modern” issues which often erroneously are labelled as examples of Modernism.
 
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