What is Scientology?

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One need not rely merely on the gospels themselves as the historical basis for the life and execution of Jesus. I’m not aware of any reputable historian of the era that disputes those facts, are you?

The rub, of course, is the resurrection accounts. Unlike pretty much any other religion’s origins, the resurrection defies reasonable alternate explanations. A few have been tried, but none are viable.
  1. Jesus wasn’t really dead, just unconscious. He revived and sneaked out of the tomb and slunk away.
  2. His disciples stole the body so that they could claim he was resurrected and gain power and prestige as result.
  3. Wild animals came and ate the remains.
These are honestly the best explanations that have been offered, but none hold up to scrutiny. Professional authors have already examined each of these far better than my poor writing skills are up to and I refer you to them for the details. But if resurrection really IS the most likely explanation for the facts in the historical record, then THAT fact is what suddenly lends the gospel accounts their historical and spiritual authority. If Jesus is someone able to rise from the dead and he selected 12 people to teach authoritatively in his name, it’s probably a rather good idea to have a listen!
 
One need not rely merely on the gospels themselves as the historical basis for the life and execution of Jesus. I’m not aware of any reputable historian of the era that disputes those facts, are you?

The rub, of course, is the resurrection accounts. Unlike pretty much any other religion’s origins, the resurrection defies reasonable alternate explanations. A few have been tried, but none are viable.
  1. Jesus wasn’t really dead, just unconscious. He revived and sneaked out of the tomb and slunk away.
  2. His disciples stole the body so that they could claim he was resurrected and gain power and prestige as result.
  3. Wild animals came and ate the remains.
These are honestly the best explanations that have been offered, but none hold up to scrutiny. Professional authors have already examined each of these far better than my poor writing skills are up to and I refer you to them for the details. But if resurrection really IS the most likely explanation for the facts in the historical record, then THAT fact is what suddenly lends the gospel accounts their historical and spiritual authority. If Jesus is someone able to rise from the dead and he selected 12 people to teach authoritatively in his name, it’s probably a rather good idea to have a listen!
  1. The disciples, in a heightened and emotional state after the horror of the crucifixion and the loss of their much-loved leader, see visions of him, which speak to them. Rapidly this becomes the story of a Resurrection, and other elements of the story quickly gather round the core, including tombs and stones and gardeners.
You may think this explanation unlikely, and your explanation the most likely explanation for the facts “in the historical record”. But does the possibility of my explanation being true represent a greater miracle than a thoroughly dead man coming alive again?
 
  1. The disciples, in a heightened and emotional state after the horror of the crucifixion and the loss of their much-loved leader, see visions of him, which speak to them. Rapidly this becomes the story of a Resurrection, and other elements of the story quickly gather round the core, including tombs and stones and gardeners.
You may think this explanation unlikely, and your explanation the most likely explanation for the facts “in the historical record”. But does the possibility of my explanation being true represent a greater miracle than a thoroughly dead man coming alive again?
Ah the great hallucination.

What a rack on which to hang a hat. Discount every detail, keep 1, explain away reality.

There are details you either do not know, or wish to exclude that mitigate this theory to dust. You could start at verse 13 here( usccb.org/bible/luke/24 ), but all before it is also support against the great hallucination.

Unless your logic tells you that everyone on a specific date in time, in a specific region of the world, hallucinated.

Not everyone who saw Him, loved him. It would probably be safe to say ‘most’, at the time (considering his way of death and who made the choice to kill him).
 
  1. The disciples, in a heightened and emotional state after the horror of the crucifixion and the loss of their much-loved leader, see visions of him, which speak to them. Rapidly this becomes the story of a Resurrection, and other elements of the story quickly gather round the core, including tombs and stones and gardeners.
You may think this explanation unlikely, and your explanation the most likely explanation for the facts “in the historical record”. But does the possibility of my explanation being true represent a greater miracle than a thoroughly dead man coming alive again?
You’re saying all the disciples had multiple individual and group hallucinations? Even if that were the case I don’t see how that could have convinced all the people who weren’t disciples, but lived in the area and were well aware of the goings on. People are devastated, emotionally vulnerable, and sometimes traumatized by the death of a relative or greatly loved political/cultural figure (FDR, Michael Jackson, etc.) but you don’t hear about them seeing the person rising from the dead.
 
Ah the great hallucination.

What a rack on which to hang a hat. Discount every detail, keep 1, explain away reality.

There are details you either do not know, or wish to exclude that mitigate this theory to dust. You could start at verse 13 here( usccb.org/bible/luke/24 ), but all before it is also support against the great hallucination.

Unless your logic tells you that everyone on a specific date in time, in a specific region of the world, hallucinated.

Not everyone who saw Him, loved him. It would probably be safe to say most, at the time.
You have, I think missed the point. I am not arguing for an hallucination. I am arguing that for such an explanation to be true would not be miraculous. If it involved everyone in a specific region hallucinating, that might well qualify as a miracle. But of course the Resurrection did not involve everyone in a specific region, unless you make that region the size of a room, or an inn table, in which case I think it no longer qualifies.

And to justify belief in a miracle such as the Resurrection, alternative explanations have to be even more miraculous. The hallucination explanation, true or false, is not more miraculous than the Resurrection explanation.
 
You’re saying all the disciples had multiple individual and group hallucinations? Even if that were the case I don’t see how that could have convinced all the people who weren’t disciples, but lived in the area and were well aware of the goings on. People are devastated, emotionally vulnerable, and sometimes traumatized by the death of a relative or greatly loved political/cultural figure (FDR, Michael Jackson, etc.) but you don’t hear about them seeing the person rising from the dead.
No, I’m not. I’m saying that explanation would not be miraculous. You might find it unconvincing, but it is not miraculous. Does the Gospel account have people “seeing someone rising from the dead”, by the way?
 
No, I’m not. I’m saying that explanation would not be miraculous. You might find it unconvincing, but it is not miraculous. Does the Gospel account have people “seeing someone rising from the dead”, by the way?
Lazarus walked out of the tomb still in his burial wrappings. Christ was clearly dead and in a tomb, but then appeared among the living.
 
One need not rely merely on the gospels themselves as the historical basis for the life and execution of Jesus. I’m not aware of any reputable historian of the era that disputes those facts, are you?
Maybe you haven’t been reading other posts, or whatever, but the point is that Josephus, Eusebius, the Gospels, etc, are disputed, save by the pious or the invested.
The rub, of course, is the resurrection accounts. Unlike pretty much any other religion’s origins, the resurrection defies reasonable alternate explanations. A few have been tried, but none are viable.
Aye, that’s the rub. Again, none are viable to the pious. It is good to remember that faith or belief does not equal knowledge.
  1. Jesus wasn’t really dead, just unconscious. He revived and sneaked out of the tomb and slunk away.
  2. His disciples stole the body so that they could claim he was resurrected and gain power and prestige as result.
  3. Wild animals came and ate the remains.
These are honestly the best explanations that have been offered, but none hold up to scrutiny. Professional authors have already examined each of these far better than my poor writing skills are up to and I refer you to them for the details. But if resurrection really IS the most likely explanation for the facts in the historical record, then THAT fact is what suddenly lends the gospel accounts their historical and spiritual authority. If Jesus is someone able to rise from the dead and he selected 12 people to teach authoritatively in his name, it’s probably a rather good idea to have a listen!
The use of the word “honestly” here is not appropriate, as far as I can tell. Also the list is incomplete. The first alternative, as you spell it out, would appear to a psychometrist of being loaded with foregone conclusions. The second belies planning that is worthy of a conspiracy theorist, but probably not within the demeanor of the disciples. The third one is simple, but unlikely.

The one that is conspicuously left out is the one based on the human propensities for story telling, embellishment, poor witnessing, misinterpretation, poor translation, ignorance of idioms and actual premises, (Mark 4 33,34, eg) etc, etc, etc. My favorite is that there may have been a historical Jesus. Likely was. And as TE Lawrence wrote about that part of the world, there was/is a pretty steady stream of prophets coming out of one desert or another. Some of them were genuine seers and clear. Inevitably, one got (in)famous for a number of reasons and actually clicked with many. But the unfortunate part was, that while he was a fabulously skilled and charismatic individual, he was also misunderstood as to the actual premise of his work. Maybe less at his time, but very certainly through his apostles.

So, to cut it short, he was a fabulous metaphysician, most likely a proponent of non dualism, that being the most easily misunderstood teaching of any time, and also the most consistently even teaching under any circumstance in the history of the world, in any part of it, however it arises. Given that, it is no wonder that what he had to offer was completely turned on him by well meaning but uncomprehending individuals. And that is how religions are formed from what is originally a direct transmittal. Like CS Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters, when the student devil became alarmed at his client picking up a fragment of Truth: “Don’t worry, We’ll just let him organize it.”

So what was intended as transformative symbology became litralized. Have you read this? It might help. There are other such wonderfully instructional works aimed at allowing the layman to think more critically and comprehensively about the phenomenon of religion, even their own. Such examination is highly beneficial and very rewarding. Unfortunately, because it is also rather disturbing to ordinary mass religious conviction and convention, it is not a popular pursuit.
 
The one that is conspicuously left out is the one based on the human propensities for story telling, embellishment, poor witnessing, misinterpretation, poor translation, ignorance of idioms and actual premises, (Mark 4 33,34, eg) etc, etc, etc. My favorite is that there may have been a historical Jesus. Likely was. …

So, to cut it short, he was a fabulous metaphysician, …

So what was intended as transformative symbology became litralized. …
None of which explain how the entrenched Jewish authorities of his day who were so concerned about Jesus’ appeal that the conspired to have the Romans execute him would then have stood idly by while the apostles later “made up” the resurrection story when they could easily have simply opened up the tomb, placed Jesus skull on a pike and squashed the whole thing. Not to mention the Romans who later found Christians so troublesome. If there was a corpse to be pointed to, dontcha’ think somebody would have pointed to it?
 
None of which explain how the entrenched Jewish authorities of his day who were so concerned about Jesus’ appeal that the conspired to have the Romans execute him would then have stood idly by while the apostles later “made up” the resurrection story when they could easily have simply opened up the tomb, placed Jesus skull on a pike and squashed the whole thing. Not to mention the Romans who later found Christians so troublesome. If there was a corpse to be pointed to, dontcha’ think somebody would have pointed to it?
Why would they need a body? 1,2, or 3 would have served at that time. It is only faithers needing to verify a story who need the resurrection explanation. Symbology is by far the more acceptable explanation. And I’m only hypothesizing. I wasn’t there. From here, it is hearsay.
 
Well a body would rather soundly crush the resurrection claims, eh?

“Our Messiah lives!”
“Nope, see? Here’s his corpse. Now shut up or I’ll make a rug out of it for my throne room.”

Rather a difficult one to comeback from, no?

But we can play this game with ANY history. Perhaps Abe Lincoln is a pious legend created by republican campaign strategists… :rolleyes:
 
Well a body would rather soundly crush the resurrection claims, eh?

“Our Messiah lives!”
“Nope, see? Here’s his corpse. Now shut up or I’ll make a rug out of it for my throne room.”

Rather a difficult one to comeback from, no?

But we can play this game with ANY history. Perhaps Abe Lincoln is a pious legend created by republican campaign strategists… :rolleyes:
I see you like streeeeeeeeetching things. No need to come back. Nor to question Lincoln, though there are myths aplenty about him, as well. There was no need to crush anything after the claimed crucifixion. What may be happening here is is a lack of differentiation between faith, an emotional need, and simple intellectual knowledge. Faithers must treat belief as knowledge, which it definitely is not, or the faith falls apart, and you are just left with what god gave you before you learned stuff. And of course, that is insufficient if your identity is predicated on a belief system. A brain on faith won’t let it’s owner admit doubt. Image, self image, is at stake. And that is the most precious possession of an ego. Yes? The greatest horror to a believer is to lose face by questioning the actual source of belief. But when the imagined world collapses, there is hope of seeing clearly and doing some work.
 
Well it’s sure a good thing for us feeble simpletons that there are smart guys like you out there then!
 
What am I to say to something like that? It’s degrading to both of us.
Honestly, and I’m not trying to be rude when I say this, that’s the vibe you give off in a lot of your comments 😊
 
Honestly, and I’m not trying to be rude when I say this, that’s the vibe you give off in a lot of your comments 😊
Interesting, as I learned to write like that in the Catholic school system. We were trained to be very critical of ideas and their supporting structures, and to use appropriate vocabulary. I was actually the dumb guy in most of my classes, so I’m not quite sure what manualman is getting at, or you. But that was over 45 years ago. I guess things have changed. I don’t think anyone is being outright rude. In my day we were just very strict with each other in these matters. Believe me, for a long time I argued in kind for the Catholic viewpoint on all matters. No one thought I was being a “smart guy” then.
 
Fair enough Eric.

I’ll start a new thread because the subject that this morphed into is of interest.

I’ll title it ‘the great hallucination’ and start with Picky’s response, for those interested.

Now only if I knew how to bring over the quote thing properly.
 
  1. The disciples, in a heightened and emotional state after the horror of the crucifixion and the loss of their much-loved leader, see visions of him, which speak to them.
Hi Picky, I’m afraid that you haven’t done your research on this. He remained around, talking to people, hundreds of them, for quite some time.
 
Hi Picky, I’m afraid that you haven’t done your research on this. He remained around, talking to people, hundreds of them, for quite some time.
So I have been told.

I apologise, but I’m not going to answer your point, because the thread which ffg threatened a few posts back he did in fact start, called the great hallucination, and that has developed into a chat between him and me which is further than I had wished to go, and as far as I am going to go, in this place, in discussing the truth of Christianity. I wish I had not contributed to the scientology thread, or another which floated about at the same time on Lewis, because it seems probably pointless and certainly of dubious politeness to argue my opinions here. At least I shall now restrict that activity to the hallucinations thread. The point about “hundreds of people”, and the point about “for quite some time”, are to some extent covered there.
 
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