What is self-defense?

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This is a theological question. After reading answers about why an abortion to save the mother’s life isn’t considered to be self-defense, the answer seems to be because self-defense is only ok in terms of an aggressor not mere threat. In other words, the child is innocent and not taking an aggressive motive.

If that is correct–that a threat to ones life is not sufficient to invoke killing in self-defense–then does this also apply to other scenarios? For example, if a retarded man is playing with a loaded gun which he clearly thinks is a toy and is about to pretend to shoot you, is it self-defense to shoot first? I’m sure there are other, perhaps better, examples… but you get the idea.
 
“retarded”?

Really?

I thought we had come farther than that.
 
This is a theological question. After reading answers about why an abortion to save the mother’s life isn’t considered to be self-defense, the answer seems to be because self-defense is only ok in terms of an aggressor not mere threat. In other words, the child is innocent and not taking an aggressive motive.

If that is correct–that a threat to ones life is not sufficient to invoke killing in self-defense–then does this also apply to other scenarios? For example, if a retarded man is playing with a loaded gun which he clearly thinks is a toy and is about to pretend to shoot you, is it self-defense to shoot first? I’m sure there are other, perhaps better, examples… but you get the idea.
I honestly wouldn’t shoot. I would probably yell and scream for them to put it down, in which case they probably would. No offense, but your example is a little bit extreme. I won’t judge you on your use of the word “retarded,” but a more politically correct word may have been better. I assume you did not have ill intentions.

As for your example, I find it a bit extreme. I mean, why would a man who does not understand the concept of a gun have one, and more importantly, why do you happen to have a gun at the same time?

Sorry, that was off topic, but no, I would not shoot at him, but I honestly don’t see the reason to anyway.
 
This is a theological question. After reading answers about why an abortion to save the mother’s life isn’t considered to be self-defense, the answer seems to be because self-defense is only ok in terms of an aggressor not mere threat. In other words, the child is innocent and not taking an aggressive motive.

If that is correct–that a threat to ones life is not sufficient to invoke killing in self-defense–then does this also apply to other scenarios? For example, if a retarded man is playing with a loaded gun which he clearly thinks is a toy and is about to pretend to shoot you, is it self-defense to shoot first? I’m sure there are other, perhaps better, examples… but you get the idea.
Good questions.

The answer, as I understand it, is that it is inappropriate to use deadly force (i.e., in self defense) against somebody who isn’t an aggressor.

In your example, however, the disabled man could possibly be considered an aggressor (depending on the circumstances) even though the aggression is unintentional. You don’t necessarily have any way of knowing his intent. The person who is acting in self-defense has to judge the situation as best as he can and make a judgement on whether deadly force is a appropriate to the circumstances. In your example I’d say ‘probably not,’ but I could imagine a situation where somebody with a mental disability (e.g., somebody suffering from schizophrenia) might be brandishing a weapon in a clearly aggressive manner that might justify deadly force in self defense.

I would characterize the abortion situation a little differently though. I see it as being more like this: imagine you are walking on the sidewalk in the winter. A car approaches, and the driver slips on some ice and starts careening toward you. Is it appropriate to shoot the driver?

I think the clear answer is ‘NO!’ The driver has done absolutely nothing to harm you, they have simply lost control of their vehicle. In this case, you probably know without a doubt that the driver is not an aggressor, so you would be committing a terrible sin in killing them. It is the same with the child – we know without a doubt that the unborn child is not an aggressor, so deadly force in self-defense is inappropriate.
As for your example, I find it a bit extreme. I mean, why would a man who does not understand the concept of a gun have one, and more importantly, why do you happen to have a gun at the same time?
Your first question is fair. Your second, however…in the U.S., we have a right to carry firearms for our defense. Lots of people – even faithful, devout, obedient Catholics – ‘happen to have a gun’ at any given moment, since violent crime can and does happen at any given moment. I ‘happen to have a gun’ within reach right now, as a matter of fact ;). I pray every single day that I will never need to use a firearm in a defensive situation, but if one arises I am glad I live in a place that affords me a reasonable opportunity to defend myself and others against violent aggressors.

God bless you!
 
Your first question is fair. Your second, however…in the U.S., we have a right to carry firearms for our defense. Lots of people – even faithful, devout, obedient Catholics – ‘happen to have a gun’ at any given moment, since violent crime can and does happen at any given moment. I ‘happen to have a gun’ within reach right now, as a matter of fact ;). I pray every single day that I will never need to use a firearm in a defensive situation, but if one arises I am glad I live in a place that affords me a reasonable opportunity to defend myself and others against violent aggressors.

God bless you!
I agree with the right to carry firearm. I was just picturing this story in my head and saw it as a family member or something finding and picking up a gun. In which case, unless you have multiple guns handy, which many people do, I guess, they will have your gun. If they have your gun, how will you shoot them? We only have one gun, so I guess it blocked my ability to see the possibility of the senario.🙂
 
“retarded”?

Really?

I thought we had come farther than that.
You’re not supposed to call someone “retarded” as an insult–AFAIK it’s still politically correct when actually talking about someone with mental retardation. (Just like it’s ok to refer to someone as gay when they’re actually homosexual, but not to refer to something you’d just like to describe as “dumb.”)

But thanks for answering my question.
 
I honestly wouldn’t shoot. I would probably yell and scream for them to put it down, in which case they probably would. No offense, but your example is a little bit extreme. I won’t judge you on your use of the word “retarded,” but a more politically correct word may have been better. I assume you did not have ill intentions.
Sorry, maybe I could have used a better term. But I really only mean someone who is technically innocent and not attempting to harm.
 
I would characterize the abortion situation a little differently though. I see it as being more like this: imagine you are walking on the sidewalk in the winter. A car approaches, and the driver slips on some ice and starts careening toward you. Is it appropriate to shoot the driver?
I was trying to think of a similar scenario but I couldn’t think of one where I wouldn’t get responses like, “but how does killing the driver save your life?”
I think the clear answer is ‘NO!’ The driver has done absolutely nothing to harm you, they have simply lost control of their vehicle. In this case, you probably know without a doubt that the driver is not an aggressor, so you would be committing a terrible sin in killing them. It is the same with the child – we know without a doubt that the unborn child is not an aggressor, so deadly force in self-defense is inappropriate.
So we have a right to end threats to our own lives (obvious), but not always in every circumstance–when it involves ending the life of another person. I would say this is probably counter-intuitive to most people: the idea of self-defense seems to be the right to defend your own life against all threats. But I don’t know that for sure. I wonder what the legal system would say about your example above.

Thanks for the response.
 
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