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BlackFriar
Guest
Infanticide was considerably worse.
What is the difference between the old testament killings and the jihad
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thephilosopher6
Guest
Well, my argument was assuming the events described are fully historical in the first place.
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Mary888
Guest
What about atheism and crimes? In the Communist prisons millions were tortured and slowly killed in the name of atheism. They literally tortured people to say there is no God. Especially if the inmates were known to have been priests or monks.
So then… what is the difference between an atheist and a Communist?
They tell me this, I tell them about the OT wars being different than the jihad.
So then… what is the difference between an atheist and a Communist?
They tell me this, I tell them about the OT wars being different than the jihad.
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HarryStotle
Guest
In light of this, go back and read the Pius X quote in post 8 and tell me again how it doesn’t apply to your posts in this thread. You might want to read the entire On the Doctrine of the Modernists.thephilosopher6:
Or not, and the victors justified their immoral genocide and greed to posterity by such self serving rationalisations. No doubt all part of Gods plan, as is all sin, but not necessarily of His making.
If God wasn’t involved in the Exodus and in the conquest of the Holy Land, then he likely wasn’t involved in promising to Abraham that his descendants would be blessed and through them the entire world. it would also mean he wasn’t involved in the promise to David of an everlasting Kingdom. No need then to assume any prophetic foreshadowing of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus in the OT and no need to think Jesus was God become man because we can apply a human lens to every Biblical event and reduce it to some explanation which accords with our own presumptions about each of them. If the God of the OT was merely a projection of the will of the Jewish people, then for that God to take on human form and spread his message globally is simply to deify the aspirations of humanity at large – which takes us right back to Modernism.
If God was not directly involved in one of the OT events, and the “myth” surrounding that event was likely fabricated to morally justify it, then everything in the OT is amenable to the same treatment. And if everything in the OT can be rewritten or reinterpreted to meet our modern sensibilities then so can everything in the NT.
Modernism. Modernism. Modernism.
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Mintaka
Guest
Going back to the original topic…
One of the whole points of the Bible is that the Holy Land isn’t just some random place. It’s Eden. Whenever Israel, as the rightful heir of Adam, is going toward it or living in it, things are going according to divine plan. Whenever Israel is driven out, the people have sinned and are being punished. The kings or high priests of Eden are the direct descendants of Adam and Abraham. It’s their job to guard and care for the Land, and to keep it holy by living in a holy way. All this leads up to the coming of Jesus, the Messiah and Emmanuel, bringing the covenant family relationship between God and Israel to all humans, and making it culminate in His eternal Kingdom.
The corollary to this is that, pre-Jesus, when you have other groups living in the Land who are not close kin to the Israelites, they don’t have any inherited right to be there. They are interlopers and invaders, and so they are people to guard the Land against. The closer related they are to the Israelites, the more gently they are treated because they have more right to be there. And after the Land is won, the Israelites follow the normal laws of warfare towards any invading people. But any pagan thing that pagans do in the Holy Land is much more an abomination to God than normal, because everything in the Holy Land is supposed to be kept holy to God.
The scary commands from God all happened when the Israelites were initially fighting people who are associated with demonic powers, whose own mythology claimed descent from “divine messengers” who taught them things like necromantic magic, divination, and child sacrifice. The Amorites were living in the Holy Land, but committing constant blasphemies in their way of life, and teaching them to Israelites. So the way that Israel was commanded to treat the Amorites living in the Holy Land was very similar to the way they were commanded to treat their own blasphemers. But they weren’t commanded to kill every single Amorite everywhere, for the rest of time – they only are commanded to kill the ones inside the Holy Land, at a specific time. That is pretty harsh, but their actions have a clear stopping point.
However, you will notice that even with the Amorites, you get a person like Ruth who turns around this curse of her people’s horrible beliefs, by her own love and trust of her mother in law leading her to worship God truly. She is allowed to come in from outside the Land, she is protected as a widow and stranger, and she becomes a valued part of Israel – and in fact, her grandson by her new husband Boaz is King David; and Jesus is her descendant through Mary.
One of the whole points of the Bible is that the Holy Land isn’t just some random place. It’s Eden. Whenever Israel, as the rightful heir of Adam, is going toward it or living in it, things are going according to divine plan. Whenever Israel is driven out, the people have sinned and are being punished. The kings or high priests of Eden are the direct descendants of Adam and Abraham. It’s their job to guard and care for the Land, and to keep it holy by living in a holy way. All this leads up to the coming of Jesus, the Messiah and Emmanuel, bringing the covenant family relationship between God and Israel to all humans, and making it culminate in His eternal Kingdom.
The corollary to this is that, pre-Jesus, when you have other groups living in the Land who are not close kin to the Israelites, they don’t have any inherited right to be there. They are interlopers and invaders, and so they are people to guard the Land against. The closer related they are to the Israelites, the more gently they are treated because they have more right to be there. And after the Land is won, the Israelites follow the normal laws of warfare towards any invading people. But any pagan thing that pagans do in the Holy Land is much more an abomination to God than normal, because everything in the Holy Land is supposed to be kept holy to God.
The scary commands from God all happened when the Israelites were initially fighting people who are associated with demonic powers, whose own mythology claimed descent from “divine messengers” who taught them things like necromantic magic, divination, and child sacrifice. The Amorites were living in the Holy Land, but committing constant blasphemies in their way of life, and teaching them to Israelites. So the way that Israel was commanded to treat the Amorites living in the Holy Land was very similar to the way they were commanded to treat their own blasphemers. But they weren’t commanded to kill every single Amorite everywhere, for the rest of time – they only are commanded to kill the ones inside the Holy Land, at a specific time. That is pretty harsh, but their actions have a clear stopping point.
However, you will notice that even with the Amorites, you get a person like Ruth who turns around this curse of her people’s horrible beliefs, by her own love and trust of her mother in law leading her to worship God truly. She is allowed to come in from outside the Land, she is protected as a widow and stranger, and she becomes a valued part of Israel – and in fact, her grandson by her new husband Boaz is King David; and Jesus is her descendant through Mary.
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Mintaka
Guest
(continuing long post)
Muslims are commanded by the Quran to take over the whole world, not just a specific piece of land. Anyone who will not convert is subject to being killed, and if the non-convert person is a woman or boy, each one is subject to being made a sex slave. If it is convenient, it’s also okay to kill other Muslims, including women and children; being killed is their contribution to the jihad against unbelievers! This is not a rare occurrence for particular wars; it’s the general Muslim law for war.
Being related does not make any difference; and indeed, there are passages in the Quran and ahadith that indicate that all Jews are descended from pigs and monkeys, and that they will be turned back into pigs and monkeys at the end of time. (They also believe that everybody in the Bible is actually a pre-Mohammed Muslim who lived in Arabia, and that the entire Bible was stolen and faked up by these Jewish were-pigs. It’s a pretty nasty subject to delve into.)
So there are quite a few differences between the OT Jews having a few specific commands from God against specific groups at specific moments in history, and Muslims being commanded to slaughter and rape whoever they want, at any time they’re at war with anyone.
Muslims are commanded by the Quran to take over the whole world, not just a specific piece of land. Anyone who will not convert is subject to being killed, and if the non-convert person is a woman or boy, each one is subject to being made a sex slave. If it is convenient, it’s also okay to kill other Muslims, including women and children; being killed is their contribution to the jihad against unbelievers! This is not a rare occurrence for particular wars; it’s the general Muslim law for war.
Being related does not make any difference; and indeed, there are passages in the Quran and ahadith that indicate that all Jews are descended from pigs and monkeys, and that they will be turned back into pigs and monkeys at the end of time. (They also believe that everybody in the Bible is actually a pre-Mohammed Muslim who lived in Arabia, and that the entire Bible was stolen and faked up by these Jewish were-pigs. It’s a pretty nasty subject to delve into.)
So there are quite a few differences between the OT Jews having a few specific commands from God against specific groups at specific moments in history, and Muslims being commanded to slaughter and rape whoever they want, at any time they’re at war with anyone.
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DetectiveNiko
Guest
This helps, thank a lot !
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BlackFriar
Guest
Who can doubt the historicity of the takeover.
Its the rationale that cannot be historically proven.
Given that “God made me do it” is only used by psychotics to justify the unjustifiable Ochkams razor suggests an exception for just one group in history (two if we include the Crusades) is unlikely.
Its the rationale that cannot be historically proven.
Given that “God made me do it” is only used by psychotics to justify the unjustifiable Ochkams razor suggests an exception for just one group in history (two if we include the Crusades) is unlikely.
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BlackFriar
Guest
How does that mesh with not committing adultery or fornication which Abrahamic religions uphold?
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abucs
Guest
Fatima. Check it out.
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abucs
Guest
Well I see the results of jihad today and it is evil.
In comparison you are talking about Jewish stories thousands of years old without comprehensive context.
I would say that Jesus came to our world to show man the incarnated God and that is the model that Christians have uppermost in their minds.
Do they have a problem with Jesus?
Or do they want to look past what Catholics actually think to find a reason to reject Christianity?
If it is the latter then you are talking to a closed book. If however they have open minds then the actions of Jesus in showing the true face of God speaks against some of the interpretation of the initiation of violence from the old Jewish stories.
Christ is the truest face of God on earth and the initiation of violence is prohibited because of Christ’s example to us.
In comparison you are talking about Jewish stories thousands of years old without comprehensive context.
I would say that Jesus came to our world to show man the incarnated God and that is the model that Christians have uppermost in their minds.
Do they have a problem with Jesus?
Or do they want to look past what Catholics actually think to find a reason to reject Christianity?
If it is the latter then you are talking to a closed book. If however they have open minds then the actions of Jesus in showing the true face of God speaks against some of the interpretation of the initiation of violence from the old Jewish stories.
Christ is the truest face of God on earth and the initiation of violence is prohibited because of Christ’s example to us.
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Thom18
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In my opinion, the biggest difference is that jihad is still occurring, and necessarily has to, it seems. On the other hand, Israel already has what God wanted them to have- one region. Jihad seems concerned with “world domination”, I’d put it, while the Old Testament killings were only concerned with what would become Israel.
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