I think people know the difference between hyperbole and discounting the historicity of the Bible." Amen to that. What you see is what you get. You either believe all of it or not. Good luck on picking the parts that are not from God is what I will often say. " - Rightlydivide
What you see is what you get?
In Matthew 18:9, did Jesus mean the eye should actually be dislodged from the person?
And do you also believe that our God, the one revealed to us in Christ, ordered genocide against the residents of Jericho and Ai, every living Amalekite, and many more?
What do you think of verses you find in Exodus 21. Lev. 20, and Deut. 22-23? Sounds a lot like Sharia Law to me. In fact, I believe Muhammad borrowed many of his ideas from the Torah, including stoning adulterers and others to death. What do you think of Ex. 21:11 and 22:20? And we could go on and on.
If so, if this is the law given by God, we would seem to worship a different God. Or, at least we have very different views of God. I am bold enough to suggest that the New Testament, and specifically Jesus, taught us that God truly is love. Otherwise, why do we sing "Jesus Loves Me", "Jesus Loves the Little Children". and scores of other hymns of praise that testify to the love and mercy of God.
There is a reservoir of wisdom in the Bible, of course, but I will never understand how fundamentalists can insist that it all is true. Even the gospels contradict. Read, as an example, the two genealogies of Jesus (both traced through Joseph, by the way). And read the differeing accounts of the scene in the garden after the resurrection. Etc.
I worship God. Bible worship, church worship, or papal worship (infallibility) worry me in that they can become a form of idolatry. It seems that lots of people can't thrive without having a church, a pope or a book to worship. Fine. But I am content to live in this magnificent and miraculous and mammoth universe where we simply don't have the answers to many questions. That's why God is God and we are not. We live by faith and not by knowledge.This is a very good point about fundamentalism. When I sojourned among them, it seemed clear that there was no consistent framework for ârightlydividingâ scripture. Anyone reading it was pretty much left on their own to determinine what instruction is from God for us today. This is the purpose of Sacred Tradition, which they do not accept.
I agree with your view, especially the final paragraph, although more from a Jewish perspective. Certain statements in the Torah as in the rest of the Old Testament and New Testament are indeed difficult to accept at face value. I myself sometimes disagree. But what Torah Judaismâwhich can also appear fundamentalist in approach at timesâgenerally states is that one must look to other passages in the Bible to clarify the ones that donât seem reasonable in themselves or those that contradict one another. Often, a majority of these other statements can serve to shed new light on what seems like an obvious false statement or a contradiction. This kind of exegesis is frequently used by Jewish scholars. They do not necessarily take each statement in and of itself as the âtruth.â
I donât blame him. I would never want a religion named after me. Who knows what theyâll believe a couple of hundred years down the road?
I am sure the same can be said by Evangelicals about many Catholics - the majority of American Catholics, possibly.Evangelicals, sometimes just make me ashamed to be Christian altogether.
Whatever, just makes me love Catholicism more.
However, the preacher, a personal dynamo, was claiming that the Bible was right genealogically, that there was no evidence of any people on earth before roughly 4000 BC. This blew the whole thing. How can otherwise smart people swallow such fictional assertions, contradicted by archeology, anthropology, even confirmed andn written history? That simply hands ammunition to Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc., who want to make religion look silly.
Catholicism seems to straddle the fence on this matter. Mainline Protestantism generally favors the scientific, historical approach. Fundamentalists insist on keeping their eyes closed to reality because their faith woulf be underminedif they admitted to any error in the Bible.From what I understand, Baptists are divided about many issues; in fact, disagreement is traditionally common in the Baptist community. Bill Moyers, after all, is a baptist! In recent years, the group as a whole has come to be associated with conservative religious and political views, but that is not their whole history. Yes, mainline Protestants largely agree with the theory of evolution; I know Billy Graham does. And the majority of Orthodox Jews also agree with it. It is taught in Modern Orthodox yeshivas and universities with no problems.
Most mainline Protestants, in contrast, seem to have a sense of mutual respect and members often change from, say, Methodist to Presbyterian, as no big deal.. They see these denominations as allies - well, except on the local level occasionally they can feel competitive, partly because they appeal to the same overall constituency.
One of my close friends, a Reform Jewish rabbi, is an unusual blend. He is kosher and quite ceremonial and liturgical, but dismisses much of the Hebrew scriptures as pious and even nationalistic mythology/folklore. Like the first 11 chapters of Genesis, but also many of the ,iracle stories attached to Moses, etc.
That rabbi, by the way, also is quite hostile toward the Israeli government. He is definitely pro-Israel, but feels that Israel had lost its moral compass in dealing with the Palestinians. He is aligned with J St., Rabbi Lerner, Jews for Peace, etc.I had this very same discussion about the imprecision of labels on the Jewish Forum. There is much overlap and the whole categorization enterprise soon becomes so ambiguous that it loses all meaning. By the way, I believe Jimmy Carter considers himself a liberal Evangelical; is he not also a Baptist?
As you state, Orthodox Jews are not monolithic. Some are in fact fundamentalists with regard to the theory of evolution, but their number is dwindling. While Orthodox Jews virtually all believe that the 613 commandments should be obeyed by all Jews, they also recognize that most of those commandments simply CANNOT be obeyed in the modern world. One practice too many of them abide by is not recognizing the legitimacy of Conservative and Reform Rabbis: indeed they write the word rabbi as ârabbiâ when referring to them. As a Reform Jew myself, I find this insulting. But not all Orthodox Jews are of this ilk. The Modern Orthodox movement is more liberal in its religious and politicial beliefs, while at the other extreme are the Ultra-Orthodox which even some of the Traditional Orthodox find fault with. The Ultra-Orthodox would not even think it acceptable to participate in Internet discussions such as this, and many of them are not supporters of Israel since they claim it was not established according to Torah injunction. The Israeli government, however, is a target of many Jews (indeed, many Israelis) of all stripes because, frankly, it is a mess and not only with regard to the Palestinian issue. Jews see no contradiction in criticizing the government and, at the same time, being Pro-Israel. Of course, some Jews are critical of both the government and the State.
I have been to Israel four times and confess to being one of those who feels that the US has played a negative role in all this. From the beginning we showed no respect for the pain inflicted upon the Palestinians who lost their homes and more in 1948, and again in 1967. If they had been generously compensated it would have been much fairer and far less expensive for both the US and Israel - in lives as well as money. So much Muslim animus toward us began because of our continual favoritism of Israel and our billions in aid plus military and diplomatic support at every turn. I also fear that Israel will eventually pay a heavy price unless a just peace is achieved, and that doesn't have a chance as long as Israel continues to build settlements on the West Bank. How can any fair-minded person think otherwise, unless they are religious fundamentalists, Jewish or Christians (of which there are many).
We could have been genuinely and aggressively pro-Israel and pro-Palestianian at the same time, but we weren't. How different history could have been. I hope it's not too late. I keep wishing for peace and thought that Obama might have a chance to reconcile us with the vast Muslim world, but I'm not so sure now. None of this, of course, justifies terrorism, including the latest bombing in Jerusalem. But to many Palestinians, the Israeli government is to them what Nazism was to the underground during World War II. They see themselves as freedom fighters. While I don't have their perspective, I understand their anger. frustration and desire for revenge.
Fundamentalist Christians would nearly all be avid pro-Zionists, except for a few outright anti-Semites. Most other evangelicals side with Israel, too. Mainline Protestants would be more divided on the matter. I find that many feel more-or-less as I do - a strong desire to see Israel survive, but great sympathy as well for the Palestinians. The fundamentalists love to quote such verses as Genesis 12:3-4. Some believe the principal duty of the US in the world today is to stand by Israel, regardless, Many expect Christ to return soon, the massive battle of Armageddon, many jews slaughtered, the remnant accept Christ as thei Messiah, a golden reign of peace, etc. Some parallels with the Shia brand of Islam with its hidden Imam (who disappeare din a well?) who will return and establish justice, etc.
Sometimes I wonder if religion has done more good or more harm???I think we have both veered off-topic in this discussion albeit a very interesting off-topic! On the Orthodox Jewish Forum, there is discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian debacle (among a couple of hundred other topics, as on this forum) and some of the discussants are themselves Israelis, who, not surprisingly, have a unique perspective on the whole issue which Americans like me assuredly lack. The complexity of the politics is astonishing and I canât begin to explain it all, especially on this thread which is really aboutâwhat was the topic again?âthe difference between Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. Your last statement, howeverâ"Sometimes I wonder if religion has done more good or more harm?âdefinitely deserves a thread or two of its own.
Yes, Jimmy Carter is a Baptist and a Southern Baptist at that. LOL which proves our point. But I doubt that the Southern Baptist Convention would use Carter as a poster boy for a practicing southern baptist. Itâs more likely that theyâd consider him a poster boy for what not to do