What is the nature of Eternity?

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Undoubtedly, we have a keener sense of the process we call “time” because we perceive things sequentially; we remember things in the past and anticipate things that will happen in the future. We are thus inclined to think of time as a line; a sequence of events. Some scientists think time is another thing; a thing that interacts with space. Stephen Hawking is one of those who believes time travel is theoretically possible (and “proves” it mathematically), but that any matter attempting it will be destroyed in the process. That is all well beyond my ken, but at least to some, time is a real thing, not just my perception of sequence giving me the illusion that there is such a thing as “time”.

Oddly, though, we humans have a perception of “non-time”; something that is not in the clickity-clack of sequential events, and which we would not learn from it. It is an intuition of something we do not and cannot directly perceive (though the deja vu experiences of some might suggest such a perception). Being utterly outside our experience, it should be outside our imagination, but it isn’t. In that, timelessness or eternity is similar to infinity. There is no possibility whatever that we can apprehend, let alone comprehend infinity, notwithstanding the horizontal “8” we use in mathematics to signify it. Our minds are not big enough for it. Yet, we do seem, as some have observed, “built for the infinite”. We do not fill up with knowledge, love or wisdom, like so many quart jars. Likely we are on the same footing with time and timelessness, and perhaps timelessness is only an aspect of infinity. A cow with a bale of alfalfa is entirely happy. A dog with a steak is as well. They are fulfilled in the moment. We, on the other hand, are never are fully, completely satisfied. As Goethe maintained, the Faustian bargain does not “work out on the ground”, as the surveyors say. Sartre, observing this, declared that if God existed, human life would make perfect sense. But, (he being an atheist) since God does not exist, he said, life is absurd. And, like Camus, he declared that the only thing to do is to rebel against it and, ultimately, to commit suicide as a protest against someone who isn’t even there; the indisputably perfect absurdity.

Now, one could propose, and many do, that there is no God. If there is not, Sartre and Camus are right and human life is not only absurd, human life is cruel, because virtually all of us have an instinct toward, and an intuition of, a denoument that would not actually be there. We would be alone among the creatures of which we are aware, in having ultimate longings that go nowhere.

Most everyone accepts the speculation that there are purely natural creatures somewhere in the universe that are far beyond us, both in intelligence and in longevity. Many scientists seem to take that as a given. But once one allows of that possibility at all, one must accept it that such creatures would be ultimately incomprehensible to us as they are, and that we could know and understand them only insofar as they elected to communicate something of themselves to us in a way we could understand. We would call such communication “revelation”, would we not?

So, since our experience is only of sequence, but our intuition tells us timelessness has reality, and since our whole being is drawn to not only timelessness but infinity, we can only wait. And, in the meantime, we have no alternative but to weigh in our minds whether life is, indeed, absurd, or whether those things for which we long actually exist. But it is certainly sobering, and perhaps instructive, to realize how very little we know even about things that are purely natural, and to further realize we are unlikely to penetrate into much of it even if we had a thousand Hawkings with a million years to undertake it. A fair example of that is whatever was there before the Big Bang if, indeed, there was a Big Bang. It is axiomatic that we can never know that because the B.B. would have changed everything, leaving no fingerprints behind to examine. Since we are forced to admit there is much (probably most things-we still don’t even know why we have an appendix) that we can’t know, the balance seems weighted against assuming absurdity, when there are many fairly clear signs, persuasive to most humans throughout history, that the weight of the proposition is against it.

Bottom line. I don’t think we can penetrate eternity. We are, we believe, everlasting beings, but we are not eternal beings, and have no frame of reference. We can know of eternity only to the extent its aspects are revealed to us by the One who lives in it. It is interesting for us to think of eternity for that Being as a state rather than a “thing” or a perception of a “non-thing”. But we can’t know about it other than what we are told.
 
Undoubtedly, we have a keener sense of the process we call “time” because we perceive things sequentially; we remember things in the past and


than a “thing” or a perception of a “non-thing”. But we can’t know about it other than what we are told.
Wow, what a reflection! Have you ever considered writing for a living, Ridgerunner? I think you’d be good in orthodox Catholic magazines.
 
Very kind of you to say that, Spauline. By the way, my granddaughter’s name is Lily Kateri. Wise choice on the part of her parents.
 
Oddly, though, we humans have a perception of “non-time”; something that is not in the clickity-clack of sequential events, and which we would not learn from it. It is an intuition of something we do not and cannot directly perceive (though the deja vu experiences of some might suggest such a perception). Being utterly outside our experience, it should be outside our imagination, but it isn’t. In that, timelessness or eternity is similar to infinity. There is no possibility whatever that we can apprehend, let alone comprehend infinity, notwithstanding the horizontal “8” we use in mathematics to signify it. Our minds are not big enough for it. Yet, we do seem, as some have observed, “built for the infinite”. We do not fill up with knowledge, love or wisdom, like so many quart jars. Likely we are on the same footing with time and timelessness, and perhaps timelessness is only an aspect of infinity. A cow with a bale of alfalfa is entirely happy. A dog with a steak is as well. They are fulfilled in the moment. We, on the other hand, are never are fully, completely satisfied. As Goethe maintained, the Faustian bargain does not “work out on the ground”, as the surveyors say. Sartre, observing this, declared that if God existed, human life would make perfect sense. But, (he being an atheist) since God does not exist, he said, life is absurd. And, like Camus, he declared that the only thing to do is to rebel against it and, ultimately, to commit suicide as a protest against someone who isn’t even there; the indisputably perfect absurdity.

Now, one could propose, and many do, that there is no God. If there is not, Sartre and Camus are right and human life is not only absurd, human life is cruel, because virtually all of us have an instinct toward, and an intuition of, a denoument that would not actually be there. We would be alone among the creatures of which we are aware, in having ultimate longings that go nowhere.
I have a teenage daughter who professes to be an athiest, and tries to shut out any attempts to persuade her otherwise.

Next time I get her in a receptive mood, I hope I can explain this to her as well as you just did.
 
Grace & Peace!

Hi Nan!
How much of that last was written by Dionysius or whomever, and how much of that is yours?
I was referring to chapters 4 and 5 of Dionysius’ “Mystical Theology” in which he discusses that God, though the Cause of all perceptible things is not perceptible, and that though He is the Cause of all conceptual things, He is not conceptual. Here are the passages:
Dionysius:
Chapter Four

So this is what we say. The Cause of all is above all and is not inexistent, lifeless, speechless, mindless. It is not a material body, and hence has neither shape nor form, quality, quantity, or weight. It is not in any place and can neither be seen nor be touched. It is neither perceived nor is it perceptible. It suffers neither disorder nor disturbance and is overwhelmed by no earthly passion. It is not powerless and subject to the disturbances cause by sense perception. It endures no deprivation of light. It passes through no change, decay, division, loss, no ebb and flow, nothing of which the sense may be aware. None of all this can either be identified with it nor attributed to it.

Chapter Five

Again, as we climb higher we say this. It is not soul or mind, nor does it possess imagination, conviction, speech, or understanding. Nor is it speech per se, understanding per se. it cannot be spoken of and it cannot be grasped by understanding. It is not number or order, greatness or smallness, equality or inequality, similarity or dissimilarity. It is not immovable, moving or at rest. It has no power, it is not power, nor is it light. It does not live nor is it life. It is not a substance, nor is it eternity or time. It cannot be grasped by the understanding since it is neither one nor oneness, divinity nor goodness. Nor is it a spirit, in the sense in which we understand that term. It is not sonship or fatherhood and it is nothing known to us or to any other being. It falls neither within the predicate of nonbeing nor of being. Existing beings do not know it as it actually is and it does not know them as they are. There is no speaking of it, nor name nor knowledge of it. Darkness and light, error and truth—it is none of these. It is beyond assertion and denial. We make assertions and denials of what is next to it, but never of it, for it is both beyond every assertion, being the perfect and unique cause of all things, and, by virtue its preeminently simple and absolute nature, free of every limitation, beyond every limitation; it is also beyond every denial.
The statement “God transcends both existence and non-existence” can not be disputed. But to infer that, because we can not understand everything about God, therefore God’s very existence also can not be proven, is the dodge of atheism, and I dispute it.
With recourse to Dionysius again, we can neither prove nor disprove God’s existence, if by the word “existence” we understand any sort of “existence” like our own. And what other existence can we mean, given that our own existence is the only existence we know?

I think, though, that the moment we start getting interested in proving God’s existence (either to atheists or to ourselves) then we’ve kind of lost the plot. Arguing the point with atheists is particularly frustrating because the argument must necessarily have a materialist bias. The theist is lost from the get-go. Even if the theist proves that God exists, the terms of the proof will be materialist and conceptual (what other terms would the atheist accept?)—that God that is proven to exist, then, is not God because the terms of the argument will not admit that the God that cannot be conceptualized exists! Do you see what I’m saying here? It has nothing to do with an argument from atheism or an atheistic dodge. It has to do with the inability of the argument from atheism to have any real relevance given the Reality of what is under discussion. And the inability of the language and argument to convey the Reality of the Really Real.

Ultimately, though, I don’t think that God’s existence is a matter of proof. It is not something to prove or disprove because it cannot be proven nor dis-proven. It is not the subject of discursive thought or endless intellectualizing one way or another. Whether or not God exists is a matter of experience, not of proof—you say as much yourself when you speak later of relationship.
we can know that God exists, and that He is real and true.
I can agree with this on the basis of revelation—that what we can say about God is based on what God has revealed to us about himself (through Scripture, for instance). But the Reality of God remains incomprehensible, and our knowledge must be qualified and carefully considered so that we do not objectify God—which so often happens in discussions of God’s nature.

(CONTINUED…)
 
(…CONTINUED)
This statement denies the omnicience of God. I can not agree with it at all.
The statement does nothing of the sort. It is predicated on the church’s understanding of the nature of evil—that it is parasitical and has no positive existence of its own. There is no purely evil thing. Evil is only revealed in a good that has been corrupted. Any purely evil thing would blink out of existence, as being in itself is a good as all being is derived from the One Good Being. To the extent that something has being, therefore, it cannot be completely evil. This is one of the reasons why evil is so weak and insubstantial, and why the church fights against any sort of “good/evil” dualism like that of the Manichaeans and pseudo-gnostics.

So what I am saying is this: evil is sin. Sin is the obscuring of the good. God is good. Sin has no part in God. God knows God. If God knew something other than God, one would have to admit that there was a reality not merely dependent on God’s reality, but entirely separate from it. One would be positing, in other words, more than one God, or more than one Word of God. As St. Anselm of Canterbury has written, God “speaks” one Word by which God understands himself. And this Word, through which he created all worlds, is also the Word by which he understands all creation. There is no knowing in God that is separate from the knowing of God. God knows us through the Word, which became incarnate in Christ. If we sin, we have no part in God. If we sin, we are not conforming to the image of Jesus. If we are not conforming to the image of Jesus, God does not know us to the extent to which we do not conform to the image of Jesus. To the extent that God does not know us, we do not exist, because God knows us through the Word by which God knows himself. Do you see what I’m saying here?
You completely misunderstand the term “Mystical Body of Christ” The Church - the community of believers united as family with our God - is the Mystical Body. The not-so-mysterious mystery is not in God’s understanding of us, but in our sense of unity with each other and with our God.
I think that you would like me to misunderstand the term “Mystical Body of Christ.” I don’t see how my articulation of it, brief as it was, is any indication of a misunderstanding.
None of what I was saying was trying to quantify or define the full nature of God’s existence. My point is that God exists. Period.
My point is that while you are not trying to quantify or define God, you wind up doing it anyway because of the basic terms of the argument.
His existence can be proven to men through the things that He has made, and through the testimony of those men who have seen Him and His works, testimony carefully preserved and copied by our ancestors who wished us to know the truth they witnessed is reliable.
Again, I do not believe that God’s existence is a matter of proof. In the face of the Reality of God, proofs or disproofs are equally meaningless. The testimony of the heavens, that you quote from Psalms, attests to this as well. The heavens don’t argue the existence of God. They declare his glory, which they reveal. The sky proclaims God’s craft. How do they declare and proclaim—through being the goods that God made them to be. By being glorious. Hence, we have an inkling of the glory of God. But we do not, for that inkling, know the full Reality of God’s Being. We can infer. But all we know, really, is that God is Glory. But Glory beyond our knowing.
Re-read post #4. Time is necessary for man to have Free Will.
I remain unconvinced.

(CONTINUED…)
 
(…CONTINUED AND COMPLETED)
I could blame the man I know as “Dad” for the mistakes I may make today. I could, but I won’t, because I am under no compulsion by him or anyone else to make those mistakes.

Past conditioning does not compel present behavior. Humans are rational, thinking beings, not instinctual ones.
This is immaterial to the issue. Who we think we are is based on a self-reflexive act of knowing which attempts to take the thinker as the object of the thought. But this is like trying to make a knife cut itself. It has nothing to do with your dad. It has everything to do with who you think you are. And you think you are is based on what you think you were. Even a moment ago. Our self is a construct based on remembering the person who thought this thing or did this thing. The self is conditioned by memory. It is conditioned, through memory, by the past. The self is who you were. Not who you are. The self is purely conceptual and has no reality in and of itself. Yet we identify ourselves with it. The self is the Body of Death.

I’m not talking, therefore, about behavioral conditioning. I’m talking about the formation of the concept of the self. And insofar as that self is not Jesus Christ, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, we identify with something that is not Truth, that is not Life, and that is no Way. Do you see what I’m saying here?
Therefore, to our still-within-time perspective, our hope is for something yet to come, a future event.
I would still argue that the reality of the event is a Present reality, because it represents what we truly are in Jesus Christ, who is Eternally Present in the Eternal Present, always accessible, and not resigned to some “future” time. As Paul says, “Now is the acceptable time.”

I’m afraid I’ve moved us a bit off topic, however. I do enjoy this discussion. And I do enjoy discussing with you, Nan. It’s very difficult to talk about God without objectifying him, is my point. And the moment we objectify God (as we often do), we’re no longer talking about God, but about an idea of God. And however noble these ideas, they can only point us to God. But they are often very attractive in themselves, and easy to mistake for the reality. But we cannot look directly at the heart of God. Metaphorically speaking, we must look to the side, and describe what we see there. The heavens declare the glory of God. So we say that God is Glorious. And know at the same time that God is so much more Glorious than we can know.

I highly suggest Pseudo-Dionysius’ works “The Divine Names” and “Mystical Theology.” He explains what I’m trying to say much much much much much much better than I possibly could.

Ridgerunner: what a lovely post!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
This is a favorite topic of mine! So I have to give you my TOTALLY UN-SCIENTIFIC favorite theory on this.
As others have indicated here ( ? ) I think that, in reality, the past, present, and future are actually all happening at the same time.
That having been said, I will proceed to my pet theory.
My life- long hobby is history, I’m absolutely obsessed with it, so I like to believe that somehow, somewhere, the past is eternally existent, and somehow accessable.
I like to think that in heaven anyone, not just God, could experience my entire life , every second, like a 3 - D complete-emmersion movie complete with what I’m feeling, thinking, and if I lay my hand on a hot stove the observer feals the same sensation.
So that, someday, you can not only march with Joan of Arc as an invisible observer, You could, if you wished, get inside Joan of Arc’s skin, literally, and "be " Joan of Arc as passive observer.
What I am describing ALREADY EXISTS of course in crude form. We have home movies of Hitler, and audio tapes of Stevie Nicks singing a song while still an unknown teenager. Is this not some - though scant - evidence that the past is indeed material ?
I always wondered how is it that everyone can live in harmony in heaven?
My pet theory offers a possible reason ( ? ) how this could be so.
In heaven everyone would be an open book.
I strongly suspect that with no secrets what-so-ever, we would find little to argue about.
The drawback of it is that I’m conscience-ridden, because I believe that someday you , and you, and you, - never mind God - will know everything about me.
Nothing, nothing at all, is hidden.
The very good thing about it - and I was severely depressed every single day until age 28 when this theory cured it - is that someday all those people who I really liked who disliked me will finally understand me and know for a fact that I really did mean well.
It is especially meaningful to me because the only person I ever loved in the romantic sense was a girl I saw in the hallways at school, 6th thru 8th grade. I have necessarily missed then 99% of her life here. Contacting her even now after 25 years would be impossible because the moment she realized I’ve carried a torch for her for 25 years for no objective or apparent selfish reason she would conclude that I’m a fruitcake and go in paranoid mode. And I am a fruitcake apparently so what could I say ? 😦 But someday she will see, know, and perhaps understand what even I myself do not know about myself.
This has no scriptural basis of course, but then I would laugh at anyone who would suggest that Jesus is going to condemn me to Hell over a childs christmas wish list.
 
It’s very difficult to talk about God without objectifying him, is my point. And the moment we objectify God (as we often do), we’re no longer talking about God, but about an idea of God. And however noble these ideas, they can only point us to God. But they are often very attractive in themselves, and easy to mistake for the reality. But we cannot look directly at the heart of God. Metaphorically speaking, we must look to the side, and describe what we see there. The heavens declare the glory of God. So we say that God is Glorious. And know at the same time that God is so much more Glorious than we can know.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
:clapping:

cheddar
 
This is a favorite topic of mine! So I have to give you my TOTALLY UN-SCIENTIFIC favorite theory on this.
As others have indicated here ( ? ) I think that, in reality, the past, present, and future are actually all happening at the same time.
That having been said, I will proceed to my pet theory.
My life- long hobby is history, I’m absolutely obsessed with it, so I like to believe that somehow, somewhere, the past is eternally existent, and somehow accessable.
I like to think that in heaven anyone, not just God, could experience my entire life , every second, like a 3 - D complete-emmersion movie complete with what I’m feeling, thinking, and if I lay my hand on a hot stove the observer feals the same sensation.
So that, someday, you can not only march with Joan of Arc as an invisible observer, You could, if you wished, get inside Joan of Arc’s skin, literally, and "be " Joan of Arc as passive observer.
What I am describing ALREADY EXISTS of course in crude form. We have home movies of Hitler, and audio tapes of Stevie Nicks singing a song while still an unknown teenager. Is this not some - though scant - evidence that the past is indeed material ?
I always wondered how is it that everyone can live in harmony in heaven?
My pet theory offers a possible reason ( ? ) how this could be so.
In heaven everyone would be an open book.
I strongly suspect that with no secrets what-so-ever, we would find little to argue about.
The drawback of it is that I’m conscience-ridden, because I believe that someday you , and you, and you, - never mind God - will know everything about me.
Nothing, nothing at all, is hidden.
The very good thing about it - and I was severely depressed every single day until age 28 when this theory cured it - is that someday all those people who I really liked who disliked me will finally understand me and know for a fact that I really did mean well.
It is especially meaningful to me because the only person I ever loved in the romantic sense was a girl I saw in the hallways at school, 6th thru 8th grade. I have necessarily missed then 99% of her life here. Contacting her even now after 25 years would be impossible because the moment she realized I’ve carried a torch for her for 25 years for no objective or apparent selfish reason she would conclude that I’m a fruitcake and go in paranoid mode. And I am a fruitcake apparently so what could I say ? 😦 But someday she will see, know, and perhaps understand what even I myself do not know about myself.
This has no scriptural basis of course, but then I would laugh at anyone who would suggest that Jesus is going to condemn me to Hell over a childs christmas wish list.
fascinating, thanks for sharing that. I’m not so sure she’d reject you as a fruitcake. I think we all have something or someone that touched our lives for some not understood reason that we continue to think about.

I appreciate all the food for thought.

cheddar
 
This is a favorite topic of mine! So I have to give you my TOTALLY UN-SCIENTIFIC favorite theory on this.
As others have indicated here ( ? ) I think that, in reality, the past, present, and future are actually all happening at the same time.
That having been said, I will proceed to my pet theory.
My life- long hobby is history, I’m absolutely obsessed with it, so I like to believe that somehow, somewhere, the past is eternally existent, and somehow accessable.
I like to think that in heaven anyone, not just God, could experience my entire life , every second, like a 3 - D complete-emmersion movie complete with what I’m feeling, thinking, and if I lay my hand on a hot stove the observer feals the same sensation.
So that, someday, you can not only march with Joan of Arc as an invisible observer, You could, if you wished, get inside Joan of Arc’s skin, literally, and "be " Joan of Arc as passive observer.
What I am describing ALREADY EXISTS of course in crude form. We have home movies of Hitler, and audio tapes of Stevie Nicks singing a song while still an unknown teenager. Is this not some - though scant - evidence that the past is indeed material ?
I always wondered how is it that everyone can live in harmony in heaven?
My pet theory offers a possible reason ( ? ) how this could be so.
In heaven everyone would be an open book.
I strongly suspect that with no secrets what-so-ever, we would find little to argue about.
The drawback of it is that I’m conscience-ridden, because I believe that someday you , and you, and you, - never mind God - will know everything about me.
Nothing, nothing at all, is hidden.
The very good thing about it - and I was severely depressed every single day until age 28 when this theory cured it - is that someday all those people who I really liked who disliked me will finally understand me and know for a fact that I really did mean well.
It is especially meaningful to me because the only person I ever loved in the romantic sense was a girl I saw in the hallways at school, 6th thru 8th grade. I have necessarily missed then 99% of her life here. Contacting her even now after 25 years would be impossible because the moment she realized I’ve carried a torch for her for 25 years for no objective or apparent selfish reason she would conclude that I’m a fruitcake and go in paranoid mode. And I am a fruitcake apparently so what could I say ? 😦 But someday she will see, know, and perhaps understand what even I myself do not know about myself.
This has no scriptural basis of course, but then I would laugh at anyone who would suggest that Jesus is going to condemn me to Hell over a childs christmas wish list.
dear kesa,

I think that at least part of your theory is true, in the sense that, from what I understand., this is part of the purpose of the General Judgement at the end of time: every human creatures’ total life, will be made “public” before every other human that has ever existed (or will exist). Everything will be laid bare, so that persons falsely accused of crime will be justified, just as those who only appeared to be holy, but were hypocrites, will be made manifest.
 
dear kesa,

I think that at least part of your theory is true, in the sense that, from what I understand., this is part of the purpose of the General Judgement at the end of time: every human creatures’ total life, will be made “public” before every other human that has ever existed (or will exist). Everything will be laid bare, so that persons falsely accused of crime will be justified, just as those who only appeared to be holy, but were hypocrites, will be made manifest.
Good point! 👍

I tend to think that time within God’s creation acts as a kind of built-in recorder (metaphorically speaking) which can essentially play back a person’s life for them. Of course, God’s presence being everywhere throughout his creation, along with his angels recording all things, probably overrides this theory-- but I thought it was interesting anyway. 🙂
 
The nature of eternity can logically be nothing other than the nature of God.

To be eternal is to be ‘known’ by God. To exist outside from God is paradoxical. Nothing can exist outside from God. To the extent that we sin we are not known by God. Since God is ‘all knowing’ to that extent that we are not known by God, we do not exist.

Logically then, the state of existence without God for all eternity [hell] can only be a state of non-existance.

Therefore, a soul which ‘choses’ to be outside from God, does not exist in a God-less state for all eternity, nor does God ‘punish’ it for all eternity. To God and for all eternity, that soul simply ceases to exist.

To ‘chose’ to be outside from God is to chose a state of non-existence.
 
Logically then, if God is omnipresent He is everywhere including what is popularly conceived of as hell.

The only state God does not exist [is not omnipresent] is in a state of non-existence.
 
Then if the soul is immortal but not eternal there must have been a time of creation.

I’m using a mathematical construct here: a point, a ray and a number line. A number line has no beginning or end and a ray has a beginning but no end. If our lives are not number lines, then they would be rays.
That is an excellent way of putting it.
 
To the extent that we sin we are not known by God. Since God is ‘all knowing’ to that extent that we are not known by God, we do not exist.

Logically then, the state of existence without God for all eternity [hell] can only be a state of non-existance.

Therefore, a soul which ‘choses’ to be outside from God, does not exist in a God-less state for all eternity, nor does God ‘punish’ it for all eternity. To God and for all eternity, that soul simply ceases to exist.

To ‘chose’ to be outside from God is to chose a state of non-existence.
Where does this idea come from, that we can be or do something (sin) that God does not know? You’re the second person to mention it on this thread.

If your first statement is accurate, your conclusion is logical.

However your first statement denies the very omniscience of God. There is nothing that He does not know. Therefore, your conclusion that Hell equals non-existence is also faulty. Have you picked up some ideas from the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Heb 4:12-13 Indeed, the word of God is living and effective, sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even between soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and able to discern reflections and thoughts of the heart. No creature is concealed from him, but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account.

PS 139:7-16 Where can I hide from your spirit? From your presence, where can I flee?
If I ascend to the heavens, you are there; if I lie down in Sheol, you are there too.
If I fly with the wings of dawn and alight beyond the sea,
Even there your hand will guide me, your right hand hold me fast.
If I say, “Surely darkness shall hide me, and night shall be my light” –
Darkness is not dark for you, and night shines as the day.
Darkness and light are but one.
You formed my inmost being; you knit me in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, so wonderfully you made me; wonderful are your works!
My very self you knew; my bones were not hidden from you,
When I was being made in secret, fashioned as in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes foresaw my actions; in your book all are written down;
my days were shaped, before one came to be.

Finally, I remind you that hell is not non-existence, but rather eternal regret and sorrow. This the Catholic Church has always taught.

Mt 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

Mt 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

CCC Para 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

If you have references that contradict the above, please post them.

Nan
 
Grace & Peace!
Where does this idea come from, that we can be or do something (sin) that God does not know? You’re the second person to mention it on this thread.
Your assumption is that sin is a thing in itself and that it can be known. If we agree with Augustine, Dionysius, Origen, and the general tradition of the church that evil has no positive existence, that it is parasitical and requires the good in order to manifest itself, that a purely evil thing would not even exist because being is a good in itself and thus no thing that has being can be completely evil, then we must conclude that sin is not part of God’s knowledge, and to the extent that we believe that sin is a thing to be known, we are deluding ourselves and “truth is not in us.” Once we believe that sin has being, then we must conclude either that being is or can be sin or sinful, or must confess that sin, like God, self-sufficient and self-existent and partakes of a level of being which, while totally devoid of the good (and hence of being as the church understands it), nonetheless has a being in and of itself which does not partake of the good. This is dualism, and is against tradition.

To use a mundane example, consider a decayed flower, decay being symbolic of evil, the flower symbolic of good. Now, attempt to point out to someone the decay in the flower. You’ll find it difficult, because ultimately, you’ll be pointing to the flower. But we recognize the decay in the flower because of it’s effect on what was the flower’s beauty.

Another example: how do you make a well-lit room dark? You extinguish the light. You don’t add darkness to the room, you take away light. How do you light a room? You don’t remove darkness: you turn on a light, and the darkness vanishes.

Sin is like darkness, on the existential level. Sin is literally self-destructive. God is aware of our sin to the extent to which God is aware of the good in us being squandered, wasted, ignored, or rejected. But sin has no part in God. Sin is not an object of God’s thought. Sin does not abide in the Logos. To sin is to become, in part, what God is not–a vacuum. A void. Devoid of being. While Dionysius suggests that God is beyond all of our assertions and denials, there is one thing at least that we can assert about what is not God: it truly, completely, and utterly IS NOT. This is the work of sin in us: absolute destruction.

But the mystery of sin with relationship to being is that sin has no power, ultimately, over being. Only God can determine what is and is not. Therefore, the person given over to sin (to hell), perpetually tends towards self-destruction. And this is the soul’s choice–it has chosen the void over being. It has rejected God and chosen sin, it’s own empty ego which it has installed on the throne of the heart. Consequently, there is no end to the soul’s torment as it perpetually rips itself to pieces, trying to rid itself of what it despises most: it’s own being, which carries in it, by nature of it’s goodness, by nature of its dependence on the Being and Grace of God, a reminder of God which the soul in hell despises and from which it seeks to remove itself. What the soul in hell wants is the void. The problem is that the void is nothing to be had. And the price of this consuming want is loss of all that the soul is. And that loss is endless. And painful.

Perhaps Origen is the best authority to invoke here. This is from Hans Urs von Balthasar’s thematic anthology of Origen’s work, “Spirit and Fire.” You may recall that Pope John Paul II planned to make von Balthasar a cardinal, but was prevented by von Balthasar’s death just a few days before his elevation. von Balthasar, one of the JPII’s favorite theologians, and an intimate of Benedict XVI, said of Origen, “In Origen I discovered that brilliant sense of what is Catholic, which i myself would like to attain.” Origen writes re: sin:

Origen of Alexandria said:
"For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish (Ps 1:6). Nothing evil is recognized by God, but only the way of the just. For “the Lord knows those who are his” (2 Tim 2:20). The “way of the righteous” is he who said “I am the way” (Jn 14:6)…He has no cognizance or knowledge of evil, not that there is anything which he cannot comprehend or understand (for it is blasphemous to think this of God), but that it is unworthy of his knowledge. … God does not know sin and God does not know sinners; he does not know those who are alien to him…Listen to the Savior as he says “Depart from me all you evil doers; I never knew you” (Mt 7:23).

(CONTINUED…)
 
(…CONTINUED & COMPLETED)

The point Origen makes re: comprehension and understanding is this: of course God can comprehend all things. He can and does. But sin is not something worthy of knowledge, comprehension or understanding. God does not know sin, because sin is not something to be known. Period. We think we know sin. But what we call sin is actually loss, and we notice it, we recognize it, because we see it’s effect in our lives.

So as long as we identify ourselves with sin and with the ego, we are lost, we move ourselves outside of God. But to the extent to which we identify with Christ, the Lover of Souls, who loved us enough to identify himself with us, we move ourselves more and more into the knowledge of God and we discover that we are only fully, truly, and completely known through, in, and with Christ.

Does this idea make more sense now?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
Sin is like darkness, on the existential level. Sin is literally self-destructive. God is aware of our sin to the extent to which God is aware of the good in us being squandered, wasted, ignored, or rejected. But sin has no part in God. Sin is not an object of God’s thought. Sin does not abide in the Logos. To sin is to become, in part, what God is not–a vacuum. A void. Devoid of being. While Dionysius suggests that God is beyond all of our assertions and denials, there is one thing at least that we can assert about what is not God: it truly, completely, and utterly IS NOT. This is the work of sin in us: absolute destruction.
Your explanation on “God does not know sin” is a lot more sensical then the original poster of this thought.

He (?) said that the “Mystical Body of Christ” refers to how something that God can not know (sin) can be bonded to Christ, sin and not-sin, instead of understanding that the Mystical Body was the Church in totality bonded to Christ - humanity and divinity bonded.

And it’s definitely better than the conclusion drawn by the second, who posited that since nothing exists without God’s knowledge, and since God does not know sin, therefore Hell must not exist except in the imagination.
Therefore, the person given over to sin (to hell), perpetually tends towards self-destruction. …What the soul in hell wants is the void. The problem is that the void is nothing to be had. And the price of this consuming want is loss of all that the soul is. And that loss is endless. And painful.
Thank you for backing me on the real existence of hell, and that non-existence is a never-to-be-fulfilled wish of the hellbound.
Origen writes re: sin: He has no cognizance or knowledge of evil, not that there is anything which he cannot comprehend or understand (for it is blasphemous to think this of God), but that it is unworthy of his knowledge. …
God does not know sin and God does not know sinners; he does not know those who are alien to him…Listen to the Savior as he says “Depart from me all you evil doers; I never knew you” (Mt 7:23).
Thank you for reminding me of this scripture. I use it sometimes. I’m not convinced Origen wasn’t straying a bit on this one. We are not worthy, either, yet God sees us fine. Also, as I’d studied this verse, “I never knew you” was always interpreted to mean, “I reject you”, not to mean “You are something that exists completely apart from me.”

Anyway, Could you address the existence or non-existence of sin relative to this verse:

2 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Thanks again.

Nan
 
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