What is the trend these days?

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How does the percentage of the so-called Cafeteria Catholics vs. the Traditional Catholics change these days? Is it increasing in number or decreasing or maybe about the same? Is there a statistics about this change? About what percentage are those Cafeteria Catholics?
 
Terms like “traditional” and “cafeteria” Catholic are more “political” terms than legal or scientific ones. As such they are not clearly defined and so, not really suitable to statistical data gathering and analysis.

There may be data around regarding things like Mass attendance as well as various “polls” and such but since I’m not overly interested in such things, I wouldn’t know where to look.

Peace
James
 
Probably, at the moment, the ratio is staying relatively constant. I expect that, in the near future, it will skew in favor of the conservatives as the older modernist/heretic priests retire and die off and the cafeteria Catholics formalize their functional apostasy.
 
Terms like “traditional” and “cafeteria” Catholic are more “political” terms than legal or scientific ones. As such they are not clearly defined and so, not really suitable to statistical data gathering and analysis.
Well, they are used frequently and not just on these boards. The term “cafeteria catholic” is strongly pejorative, only used by the ultra-conservatives.
There may be data around regarding things like Mass attendance as well as various “polls” and such but since I’m not overly interested in such things, I wouldn’t know where to look.
That is fine. I read that the Vatican is complaining about decreasing church- and mass-attendance, and the growing of those Catholics who disagree with some teachings, like abortion, contraception, the negative view on homosexuality. It might be interesting to see if there is a significant trend, and if there is, what kind of conclusions does it lead to. Idle curiosity on my part.
 
Probably, at the moment, the ratio is staying relatively constant. I expect that, in the near future, it will skew in favor of the conservatives as the older modernist/heretic priests retire and die off and the cafeteria Catholics formalize their functional apostasy.
Do you think that there will be a “formal” split?
 
How does the percentage of the so-called Cafeteria Catholics vs. the Traditional Catholics change these days? Is it increasing in number or decreasing or maybe about the same? Is there a statistics about this change? About what percentage are those Cafeteria Catholics?
You can’t split it into Traditional vs. ‘Cafeteria’. A much more sensible differentiator would be faithfulness to the teachings and practices of the Church and you don’t have to be a Traditionalist to be faithful (though some people on this forum seem to think otherwise).
 
Well, they are used frequently and not just on these boards. The term “cafeteria catholic” is strongly pejorative, only used by the ultra-conservatives.
Yes it is a commonly used term and a highly descriptive one. It’s just not terribly quantifiable.
That is fine. I read that the Vatican is complaining about decreasing church- and mass-attendance, and the growing of those Catholics who disagree with some teachings, like abortion, contraception, the negative view on homosexuality. It might be interesting to see if there is a significant trend, and if there is, what kind of conclusions does it lead to. Idle curiosity on my part.
Overall, I’d say that, at least in the U.S. there IS a significant trend away from orthodoxy, but then trends can and do change…Likewise conclusions that are based on “trends” are on pretty shaky ground.

For the non-Catholic such trends might be fodder for broad speculation but…
For the true, orthodox, Catholic, such “trends” etc. would mean little beyond pointing up a need for improved catechesis, adjustments in ministries, or other changes in an effort to reach out with the Truth of the Magisterial teachings.

In other words, such trends in the so called “Cafeteria” or “Liberal” Catholic world, are not going to change what the Church teaches. But I’m sure you already know that.

Peace
James
 
Well, they are used frequently and not just on these boards. The term “cafeteria catholic” is strongly pejorative, only used by the ultra-conservatives.
Its not only "the ultra-conservatives" who use the term "cafeteria Catholic" Actually, the term "ultra-conservatives" is strongly pejorative as well, and is** VERY **commonly used by dissenters......and ignorant (often deliberately ignorant) "news" media. Its an insult to those of us who are struggling to remain faithful.
That is fine. I read that the Vatican is complaining about decreasing church- and mass-attendance, and the growing of those Catholics who disagree with some teachings, like abortion, contraception,** the negative view on homosexuality**. It might be interesting to see if there is a significant trend, and if there is, what kind of conclusions does it lead to. Idle curiosity on my part.
The main “negative view on homosexuality” (your words) is condemnation of homosexual acts. The Church does** NOT condemn SSA sufferers: She condemns the ACTS**. Big difference.
 
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Thought_Officer:
The difficulty is that the Church’s views (although, according to the Catechism, advocate for the utmost respect and minimizing discrimination in every possible avenue) translate to a lot of negative view in believers. At the very least, if homosexuality is my “cross to bear,” it is almost certainly worse than yours, no matter your spiritual burden. This is partly because homosexuality tends to be seen as an enduring personality characteristic (which, generally speaking, it is), and other sins seem to be of appetites that can be controlled and varied, depending on our wills.
Youre right. Its a terrible cross, and im thankful not to have to carry that one! Even the mannerisms of a lot of these people give them away. At least the Church has groups like "Courage" and "Encourage" (for family members and friends), but they dont remove the cross… The outfits that help change orientation have some success, but certainly not 100%…

Counter-signals sent by dissident groups like “Acceptance” (accept the acts) and the loudmouth “Gay rights” extremists don`t help, and only give “queer bashers” an excuse to hurl insults. And deliberate lies about what the Church teaches cause a lot of these folks, who desperately need Her help, to stay well away. It stinks! :mad:

i wish the term “SSA” (Same Sex Attraction/Attracted) could be used for these people. In my own mind at least, its a more respectful and dignified way of referring to them, and Heaven knows: if we respect them, and they can see that we do, thatd help a hell of a lot. Acceptance in the right way. RESPECT and TRUST in both directions.

The problem`s a biggie!
Thanks be to God, my cross lies elsewhere. Still bl**dy heavy though :eek:

Sorry: its a ramble :blush:......finding the words is a battle Its after 12:30 AM, here. Time to hit the sack.

i hope someone with more wits can help you out.🤷
Happy hunting!
 
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Thought_Officer:
The difficulty is that the Church’s views (although, according to the Catechism, advocate for the utmost respect and minimizing discrimination in every possible avenue) translate to a lot of negative view in believers. At the very least, if homosexuality is my “cross to bear,” it is almost certainly worse than yours, no matter your spiritual burden. This is partly because homosexuality tends to be seen as an enduring personality characteristic (which, generally speaking, it is), and other sins seem to be of appetites that can be controlled and varied, depending on our wills.
Not so…There are many deviations from the norm that can be - indeed are - as you say - enduring personality characteristic(s). Would you say that the person who suffers from pedophilia has a lighter cross than the one with SSA? How about the Alcoholic or other form of drug addict? After all, some believe there is a “chemical” as well as “personality” aspects to the SSA issue and there are chemical and personality aspects to the addiction issue as well.

I don’t mean to belittle your point. Just suggesting that there are many sins out there that are, or certainly can become, “enduring personality characteristics” - if through no other form than habit…

I do agree that there are a lot of negative and maybe even unjustly judgmental views among individual Catholics. That is why we are so lucky to have the Catechism and other documents to consult to gain a better understanding and hopefully do a better job of incorporating these things into our lives, and thus grow in holiness.
It is a fine and difficult line to walk - but then following Christ is not easy and not intended to be. (See Mt 5:48)

Of course all of this is starting to get off topic…
 
Do you think that there will be a “formal” split?
No. I think cafeteria Catholics will simply drop off bit by bit as their favorite (i.e., heretical) priests retire and die and are replaced, if at all, either by younger, more conservative men, or else priests imported from Africa or East Asia, who tend toward solid theological conservatism.

The wildcard here is the SSPX, who are on the verge of being declared schismatic. If they are reconciled to Rome, this timeline will accelerate, as the body of laity in good standing with the Church will become markedly more conservative practically overnight, and the Tridentine mass will gain in popularity as something like 300 new priests will be incardinated who are capable of practicing it. If they are declared schismatic (and I think they will be), the timeline will be longer, and it’s possible that their being jettisoned from the Church will embolden the theological liberals.
 
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Thought_Officer:
I think that some parts of substance use issues and Alcoholism are enduring too (at least as far as propensities go). I’m not really arguing on that front; I’m talking about peoples’ perceptions. Although it is my opinion that other personality constructs and problems are relatively enduring, people often see those things as matters of choice: “Why doesn’t he stop drinking? He knows it only leads to his destruction.” In fact it may not be that easy. But not many people view the orientation of homosexuality to be a choice (I would think not anyway).

My point is that negative views emanate from a belief that people have agency over things like addiction, but not homosexuality. And more negative views tend to proliferate around sins that are “subject to a delicate appetite” than sins that are mere “choices” or “preferences.”
I really don’t know what the split would be on people viewing SSA as a choice vs something physical or chemical so I cant really speak to that idea directly.
What I DO see is that regardless of the particulars of SSA as a condition - there IS choice in whether one acts on those urges.

I do however agree that, for many people, it can be difficult to separate the “act” from the “temptation”.
But do you agree that negative views proliferate more heavily around homosexuality than, for instance, gluttony?
Yes, but to what extent and through what cause - I don’t know. I don’t know of any reason for anyone to single out the Church in this. After all, it’s not SSA specifically that the Church condemns, but acting upon the urge.

There needs to be a lot of teaching and understanding done in this area.

Peace
James
 
Well, they are used frequently and not just on these boards. The term “cafeteria catholic” is strongly pejorative, only used by the ultra-conservatives.
“Conservative” is a very bad word to describe a Catholic because it implies some sort of sliding scale continuum from conservative to liberal. There are only really two types of Catholics: orthodox and heterodox, or faithful and unfaithful.

Say you are a sedevacantist. That would make you, most likely, an extremely conservative Catholic. Your rejection of papal authority would, however, put you in schism with the Church. You would therefore not be a faithful Catholic and therefore not orthodox.

On the other hand, you might prefer the Novus Ordo mass (if done with due reverence) and hence you would be a faithful Catholic, but not a faithful Catholic traditionalist (aka Traditional Catholic). However, if you assented to all of the Church’s teachings, while you could technically be called a “liberal” by some (only in matters of practice), you’d still be orthodox. Of course, the label “liberal” is almost always used to refer to heterodox Catholics who are liberal in their opinions on matters of faith and morals, and not necessarily of practice.

To answer your original question, the unfaithful Catholics are possibly slowly beginning to lose ground as a proportion of those who self-identify as Catholic, many simply because they cease to identify as such. The older ones are slowly dying, and their corrupt faith has little in the way of substance, which means it is rarely passed on.

While the faithful, orthodox element may slowly begin to increase in proportion to the whole mass of self-identified Catholics, it’s unclear how much attrition there may be due to the pressures of secular culture, so their numbers may be decreasing, but at a slower rate. As faithful Catholics tend to be more evangelical and more concerned with passing their faith onto future generations, it is possible their number may remain stable or increase.
 
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