What is there to merit from attending daily mass in a state of mortal sin?

  • Thread starter Thread starter marky_man_g
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
There seem to be a lot of people asking, “Why doesn’t the person just go to confession?”

Maybe the person is ensnared in a pattern of mortal sin and conflicted about giving up the sin. Caught between love of God and the sinful situation. Maybe married outside of the Church. Maybe having an extramarital affair, knowing it’s wrong but too weak to leave. Maybe stealing from an employer to meet the family’s needs. Maybe involved in an addictive sin and feeling unable to quit. Crying out to God for help.

If you’re not ready to give up the sin, you’re not ready for confession, but you can always pray for help, and daily Mass is a great place to do that.

Betsy
 
baltobetsy said:
If you’re not ready to give up the sin, you’re not ready for confession, but you can always pray for help, and daily Mass is a great place to do that.
Click to expand...
Okay, work with me on this one. If one is “not ready to give up the sin”, then the person remains a sinner and the infallible Word of God tells us that God does not listen to the prayers of a sinner. So what will praying for help do?

Shouldn’t one first turn from the sin in an sincere effort not to sin? Then pray for help. If they fall into sin again (and they will because scripture tells us that even the most pious of us falls several times a day), then they need to make a sincere effort AGAIN to turn from those sinful ways. God will forgive us as often as we come to Him seeking forgiveness with a sincere heart but He will not listen to us while we are still clinging to that sin.
 
Sir_Knight said:
Okay, work with me on this one. If one is “not ready to give up the sin”, then the person remains a sinner and the infallible Word of God tells us that God does not listen to the prayers of a sinner. So what will praying for help do?
Click to expand...
I can’t begin to understand the idea that a loving God would refuse to hear the prayer of His child who needs help to overcome sin. We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

And another thought - if God cuts off the sinner, where does Actual Grace come from?

Betsy
 
Sir_Knight said:
Okay, work with me on this one. If one is “not ready to give up the sin”, then the person remains a sinner and the infallible Word of God tells us that God does not listen to the prayers of a sinner. So what will praying for help do?

Shouldn’t one first turn from the sin in an sincere effort not to sin? Then pray for help. If they fall into sin again (and they will because scripture tells us that even the most pious of us falls several times a day), then they need to make a sincere effort AGAIN to turn from those sinful ways. God will forgive us as often as we come to Him seeking forgiveness with a sincere heart but He will not listen to us while we are still clinging to that sin.
Click to expand...
The infallible word of God also says,
“But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified …” (Luke 18:13-14)
Click to expand...
That’s the danger in citing isolated Scripture verses out of context. Certainly God heard the prayer of the sinful tax collector. Praying for help will do a great deal of good, because conversion is a process — it rarely occurs instantaneously.

Pray for help at every stage of the process. If a sinner is praying for help to overcome the sin, he is already beginning this process of conversion, and God will hear this prayer and assist him with actual graces.
 
PhilotheaZ said:
That’s the danger in citing isolated Scripture verses out of context.
Click to expand...
You mean the way that Jesus did in Matthew 13:14-15; Mark 12:35-36; Luke 4:16-21; Luke 6:1-5; Luke 24:27 and John 7:37-38? Citing isolated scripture verses to support what He was saying.
PhilotheaZ said:
Certainly God heard the prayer of the sinful tax collector.
Click to expand...
The tax collector was turning to God for forgiveness – thus, his pray for God to have mercy on him.
PhilotheaZ said:
Praying for help will do a great deal of good, because conversion is a process — it rarely occurs instantaneously.

Pray for help at every stage of the process. If a sinner is praying for help to overcome the sin, he is already beginning this process of conversion, and God will hear this prayer and assist him with actual graces.
Click to expand...
There is a difference in honestly trying to overcome a sin and clinging to that sin.
 
baltobetsy said:
I can’t begin to understand the idea that a loving God would refuse to hear the prayer of His child who needs help to overcome sin. We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Click to expand...
As I said above, there is a difference between someone who sincerely wants to give up sinning and somebody who wants to continue to cling to sin.
baltobetsy said:
And another thought - if God cuts off the sinner, where does Actual Grace come from?
Click to expand...
If God does not cut off the sinner, does it then mean that the bible contains errors in it when it tells us that God does not hear the prayers of the sinner? And of the bible is wrong about those things, how do we know that it isn’t wrong about other things? If those teachings are wrong, then ANY other teaching MIGHT be wrong.
 
Sir_Knight said:
If God does not cut off the sinner, does it then mean that the bible contains errors in it when it tells us that God does not hear the prayers of the sinner?
Click to expand...
No, it might mean there is an error in interpretation.

Betsy
 
baltobetsy said:
No, it might mean there is an error in interpretation.

Betsy
Click to expand...
How ELSE would you interpret John 9:31 –

“ … Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth … ”

… or Isaiah 59:2 –

*“ … But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear … ”

*… Please advise?
 
I’m with Sir Knight on this one, the unrepentant sinner is cut off from God by his own doing.

But a repentant sinner in a state of perfect contrition (such as the tax collector who prayed to the Lord) is no longer in a state of mortal sin and is for all intents and purposes in a state of grace even before going to Confession.

This would probobly apply to a recovering alcoholic/gambleholic/adulterer etc… With that being said, there is nothing more efficacious at breaking an addiction/habit of mortal sin than Confession, and the habit itself is no reason to stay away from the confessional. An alcoholic may very well know that he will most likely fall and drink again, but all that is necessary in the confessional is the desire and intent to not sin again.

If the Pope can go to confession every week, so can we.
 
I can tell you all from experience that God does hear the prayers of those in mortal sin. I can see in my life that He has always been with me. The Bible also speaks of Jesus coming not for the righteous but for the sick and the lame. He ate with sinners & publicans. The Hebrews or Jews of His time also said that God doesn’t hear the prayers of the sinners. Many of the saints were the greatest of sinners before they received the grace of God, God’s mercy etc. Some merely cried out in pain to God, others were turned to Him by Him. Others were the result of prayers by their loved ones. What was the prayer St Augustine said in the beginning of his conversion: Lord give me chastity, but not right now. One of the gifts us big sinners that we are left with is that we know exactly what we are before God and how great His Mercy is and being in the state of grace is a gift from God that we need to take care of because it can be lost or taken away at anytime. One guaranteed way to lose it is through pride…and taking credit where credit is not due. Another good story in the Bible is of the two men in the temple where one was boasting how he is not like the other people and he keeps God’s laws, the other was lamenting and asking for God’s mercy and the story goes on to say…who do you think God was more pleased with? That’s my sermon for today. 😊
 
Lainey63 said:
The Hebrews or Jews of His time also said that God doesn’t hear the prayers of the sinners.
Click to expand...
And so does sacred scripture in BOTH the old and new testaments. If you disagree with this position, then you are saying that the bible is wrong on this point.

And …

If the bible is wrong on this point, how can we be certain that it is not wrong on some other point or points? We can’t! The bible is either the infallible Word of God or it isn’t. If it is wrong about this point, then it CAN be wrong about other points and there is no way for us to know what those other points MIGHT be. Any and every point that a person refers to from the bible COULD be wrong.

You say that Jesus ate with sinners? Maybe they got that point wrong and He really didn’t. If they got the point wrong about God not listening to sinners, then maybe they were mistaken about this as well.

See what happens when you take the position that a bible teaching is incorrect? You open up the entire faith to question and doubt. For that reason, I accept all of the bible’s teaching as being correct including the position that God does not listen to the prayers of those that cling to sin.
 
Contrition is a process that is not necessarily an all-at-once moment in the Confessional. Section 1453 of the Catechism speaks of imperfect contrition as the “stirring of conscience” that “can initiate an interior ***process ***which, under the prompting of grace, will be ***brought to completion ***by sacramental absolution” (emphasis added). This same Section states that this process begins by a “prompting of the Holy Spirit.”

This is entirely consistent with my own “walk” to the Confessional, which began by attending daily Masses for roughly an entire month, even while I was still in my sin (homosexuality). Eventually that walk landed me in the Confessional, where I finally turned my life away from that sin.

Arguing that daily Mass attendance is of no consequence is a vain exercise; the very notion is foreign to Scripture and to the Catechism. Sinners belong in Church. Regardless of whether a sinner’s prayers actually do anything, the sinner must be in Church to listen and open their minds and ears to what is there to hear. Importantly, it was a particular gospel message and homily on a particular day (on a date that I will remember forever - 27 August 2007) that was the immediate cause of me getting into the Confessional and out of my sin. I would never have heard that message or homily had I not been receiving ***something ***out of these Masses. Whether that was due to my own prayers, or the prayers of the faithful who were surrounding me at Mass, or the prayers of the Saints whose intercession we were requesting, or some combination of those, I do not know. What I ***do ***know was that I received the prompting of the Holy Spirit somehow, and that I am now free of that sin and will be forever grateful and thankful.

My two cents.
 
While success is obviously desirable, we are to make a (1) sincere (2) attempt to turn from sin. If it is not sincere or we do not try, then it is of no value.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top