What is your suggestion to new wording for "and don't lead us into temptation"?

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Hereiam said:
God did not tempt Job, He tested Job by allowing Satan to interfere in his life.
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Respectfully opinion only. God then >>allowed >>>Satan to not only interfere, test but God also fully>> allowed Satan to Tempt Job.

“tempt means Test” in an unrestricted sense.
Working together are they not?
Needs permission? allows?

God greatly Blesses Job for his faithfulness, thus Job is continually giving Praise Glory Worhsip to God, but now will Job remain faithful if he lost everything??

Manipulating circumstances>.all goes wrong for Job, loss of love ones, lost all his wealth, great suffering physcially etc>>trails and methods of purity?
Way of God seeing ones pure heart and intention, faithfulness?

Just ones opinion when pondering on the story of Job and the lessons within Job>>> I learned from the story of Job
Job had more years of great Blessings, then the few years of his suffering.

Lesson I learned only from the story of Job is>>>>We forget God’s Years, upon Years of His abundant good Blessings, He gives>>>>all through out this Gift of Life, His Years upon Years of great Blessing, He bestows upon us>>>>>> far out weigh the>>>>>>> few years of our sorrows, suffering, do they not? We tend to focus rather, or cry out only to Him in such times?

Which I believe Job spoke out when>> others were complaining to him? Failing to give continued Praise, Glory Worship, when all things go well, but now chose to focuse in turning only then to God, when things go wrong,

Job remains faithful in both times good or through trails and tribulations which are fewer in number?

Just ones opinion only>> after reading the story of Job. Peace 🙂
 
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rose321 said:
“tempt means Test” in an unrestricted sense.
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No. Test means to verify an outcome; tempt means to influence the outcome.

When God tests us, He want to see what impact our conscience and our free will has…again, see James 1:12-18.
 
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James 1
Temptation.
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
 
Hereiam said:
No. Test means to verify an outcome; tempt means to influence the outcome.

When God tests us, He want to see what impact our conscience and our free will has…again, see James 1:12-18.
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Respectfully opinion only. Word is >.allowed>>is it not?

Who wrote the Book of Job?
What was taking place Historically in the time of Job when also the Hebrew israelites were going through great suffering seeking God help, asking why, is He allowing or why is He not saving, helping us etc?

Opinion only right or wrong, pondering on only with questions.
Most people reading Job story, leaves them very sad, it did me, truth.
For God is Love
He cares for us,
God protect us
God is Merciful
God gives us not more then we can handle etc.

Questions arise, why? God allowing, giving permission to Satan, to test and tempt>>>>>>>>> to Job, makes me question >>>>>>
What is taking place?
Or is it a tale a story?
Did it take place or written for some other reason to give maybe answers to others, who might of been going through great innocent persecution suffering done by others to them ??
Asking >Why are we suffering? Why is God allowing this? Where is God?

Sought out experts Highly Learned in this field of studies and from other sources of faith and belief in the One God, Jesus our Lord and Savior also, books have been written on Job by experts in such field, theologians understanding, teaching knowledge on the story of Job etc etc etc

What I found so far, Book of Job, >> has 3 parts and other parts written later added to>??
Who wrote Job?
When was Job written? etc etc
Book of Job Story has 3 parts.
1.Prologue
2.Epilogue
3 Man Body of tale

Now Jobs story>. Test and Tempt>> does not flow with His Spoken Word all through out the Bible, does it?

Where James 1:12-18>>teaching fully continues to flow>>with His Spoken Word throughout the Bible, Love Merciful, Merciful and he tempts no one. Allow with Jesus teaching, one is tempted by ones own desire> lured, enticed, let no one decieve you that will lead you into sin, test or tempt, Test all Spirits etc, right?

One choses then to search, question, seek out by the Highly Learned in such Fields of strudes to my answers about Job Story>.which does not flow in context with His Spoken Word or within the Teaching of James or our Lord and Savior, teaching,of who God is, does it?

Respectfully and opinion only, with questions still seeking answers to when it comes to the story of Job . Peace 🙂
 
You’re absolutely right, and so far as I can discern, the closest interpretation from the Greek is as we pray it in English…curious that it was translated into “don’t let us fall into temptation” in Spanish and now French…and to the Pope’s point, I think of the Father in the same way…it’s to imagine Him leading us into temptation, what’s more our having to pray to Him not to do so, nevertheless, without the original Aramaic, we’ll have to trust that the Greek retained the authentic meaning.
 
In Greek, the word for temptation more usually just means “test”. And it is possible to imagine God testing us – consider the book of Job!
 
Ok, I get it, but then why pray for Him not to put us to the test? It seems to me that God accomplished great things by putting Job to the test, for it was better for Job in the long run, hard as it was along the way.

I for one can’t imagine my life without sorrows and trials…not that I enjoy them, but maybe I’ve become conditioned to them as a means of sanctification…for that reason, it’s hard for me imagine asking God not to put me to the test if it’s His will anyway.

And please don’t assume I won’t fall in line here, I’m just askin’😉
 
Tax_Collector14 said:
Ok, I get it, but then why pray for Him not to put us to the test? It seems to me that God accomplished great things by putting Job to the test, for it was better for Job in the long run, hard as it was along the way.

I for one can’t imagine my life without sorrows and trials…not that I enjoy them, but maybe I’ve become conditioned to them as a means of sanctification…for that reason, it’s hard for me imagine asking God not to put me to the test if it’s His will anyway.
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If Job knew what was coming, you better believe he would have prayed to be spared the test! I think it’s just human not to want to be tested. And if it’s a test you want, then I hardly think it counts as a test. So I see this part of the Our Father as just an indication of our own humanity and creatureliness.

It’s worth thinking about Jesus in the garden praying that he would be spared the crucifixion – his humanity on display. God LIKES us being human. It’s good to have that inscribed in the prayer, from my angle – though “lead us not into the test” is what I wish we prayed.
 
That’s actually a great point, and at the end of my last response, the same occurred to me…well said
 
keeping on a positive note…how about…

“…lead us away from temptation and deliver us from evil…”
 
petra22 said:
keeping on a positive note…how about…

“…lead us away from temptation and deliver us from evil…”
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Tricky; imagine being an alcoholic. Just about every supermarket or local food shop has a drink section, so you can’t even buy food without walking past the booze section. Most garages in the UK have a drinks section so you can’t even buy petrol without standing next to your favourite tipple.

The temptations we all face are inside our own mind, and we can’t escape that. As Oscar Wilde famously said, I can resist everything…except temptation.
 
One could always use the (Galilean) Aramaic version:

w-La ‘ul lan l-nisyon

which translates literally to “and do not pass us through trial”, which, of course, is not even close to what has been used through the ages of Christianity, but it’s the original.

As an aside, the ‘on-line’ versions you find of the prayer in “Aramaic”, are actually in Syriac; a language which developed from Aramaic about 300-400 years later than the time of Jesus.

Personally, I kind of like the “da kine talk” (Hawaiian Pidgin) version: “No let us get chance fo do bad kine stuff, But take us outa dea” 🙂
 
BrunoMaria said:
The announcement “No change in wording is necessary” is not helpful, for there are too many, who simply don’t comprehend the usual translation. Mind - it it a translation, and not the original. So, the translation must be understandable to ALL not just to believers.
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I’m not sure I agree.

No one’s screaming over the use of “hallowed be thy name”, are they? And, that’s just as incomprehensible to a modern audience!

molehill → mountain :roll_eyes: 🤣
 
Ask them, then. I’ll bet you a pocketful of nickels they’ll get hung up on what ‘hallowed’ means or, if not, on what it means for us to wish God’s name to be hallowed!
 
Gorgias said:
Ask them, then. I’ll bet you a pocketful of nickels they’ll get hung up on what ‘hallowed’ means
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“Give us this day our daily bread”

This line of the prayer is also somewhat vague. I’m sure people ask about it.
 
1Lord1Faith said:
“Give us this day our daily bread”

This line of the prayer is also somewhat vague. I’m sure people ask about it.
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Vague? Not for 90% of the population through human history, whose next meal was sometimes or often insecure.
 
From Pope Gregory the Great (6th – 7th century AD)
‘Temptation is brought to fulfillment by three stages: suggestion, delight, and consent. And we in temptation generally fall through delight and then through consent, for being begotten of the sin of the flesh we bear within us that through which we suffer conflict.
But God incarnate……came into the world without sin and so suffers no conflict within himself. He could therefore be tempted by suggestion, but the delight of sin could never touch his mind. So all these temptations of the devil are from without, not from within Him.’
It seems plain enough to me that the Holy Spirit “Immediately drove” Jesus into the wilderness to counter the failing of Adam at the first temptation. And subsequently Jesus (true God/ true Man) constructs a means for mankind to avoid sin (via prayer) and /or repent sins (via reconciliation). So, understanding (IMHO) is as important as language. Leave the Lord’s Prayer as it is.
Blessings, CS
 
In the Jerusalem Bible this phrase is rendered as “…and do not put us to the test.” The prayer ends there.

In my opinion the Jerusalem Bible’s translation is the best.
 
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