What makes a good priest or pastor?

[blazerdave]

Several threads are currently addressing issues of priestly and sacramental validity in various Christian communions. So I have a couple questions. First, it seems to me that issues of Succession outweigh other factors for Catholics. Is this correct? Is it better to have a real priest who can’t preach well (but who can consecrate a valid Sacrament) than to have a fake priest (whatever that means to you) who is great at, say, preaching or pastoral care? Note that I’m not calling anyone’s real life Church or ministers fake.

Second, Catholics and non-Catholic alike: when choosing a parish, what qualities do you hope to find in your priest or pastor?

 

[gmcbroom]

Well, the Apostolic Sucession issue is a big deal to catholics. A real priest is truly the only way to go. And to go further, The priest may be taken more seriously if they have a Valid Apostolic line…ie Catholic, Orthodox, and yes even the Anglicans courtesy of the Dutch touch. Those without the Apostolic sucession can be great ministers and really do have grace but perhaps not the fullness of the faith concerning the sacraments, as the previous 3 mentioned. But then again Jesus really only mentioned 2. So if the others have those they’d be good. Atleast thats my call.

 

[Hesychios]

The sacramental ministry is not the same as preaching/homiletics. Pastoral guidance seems to be analogous to spiritual direction.

Both the sacramental ministry and preaching are important, as is the role of a good spiritual director. For us these can be one person capable of all three, or two/three separate persons.

The concept of Apostolic succession relates to the bishop primarily, he is the ultimate pastor and he ‘delegates’ his sacramental and service functionality to others when he accepts them as his priests, deacons, subdeacons, readers etc.

The question then, should be ‘what makes a good bishop?’

This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money.

He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?

He should not be a recent convert, so that he may not become conceited and thus incur the devil’s punishment.

He must also have a good reputation among outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, the devil’s trap. Similarly, deacons must be dignified, not deceitful, not addicted to drink, not greedy for sordid gain, holding fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

Moreover, they should be tested first; then, if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
1 Tim 3:1 - 10

Therefore, appoint for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proven; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Despise them not therefore, for they are your honoured ones, together with the prophets and teachers. …
Didache Chapter 15

"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest *… "
*Saint Ignatios Letter to the Magnesians

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic (καθολικός) church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop.

On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.
Saint Ignatios Letter to the Smyrnaeans

 

[blazerdave]

Thanks for the good answers! Let me add that I’m in the Anglo-Catholic camp, so the episcopal ministry and the sacraments are of the utmost importance to me. I’m with you guys there. I’ve just wondered, especially in light of “the way things are” these days in the world (and in many of our churches), if perhaps we need more well-rounded clergy. As in, we need priests or pastors whose lives are worthy of emulation. We need homiletics that are worthwhile - neither long-winded and boring nor shallow and tepid. We need ministers to whom you can go for counseling with confidence, knowing that their character reflects holiness and charity. So (speaking for myself here), even if the sacramental life and ministry is the highest priority, there are other means of grace by which the faithful are blessed. I start to wonder if they are falling into neglect in some circles (like some liturgical churches) while being overemphasized in others (like non-sacramental churches).

Just some thoughts. Looking forward to hearing more replies!

 

[momor]

I’m lucky enough to be in a parish where our priest has all the desired qualities. One of the drawbacks of the parish priest role that I see is that so much of his time is taken up with administrative duties that it leaves less time for the pastoral ones such as visiting the sick and spiritual direction. I would love to have him teach a Bible studies course. He gives such wonderful homilies where he explains things from the OT and how they relate to or were fulfilled in the NT that I could listen for hours. But he just doesn’t have the time.

 

[brb3]

www.biblebb.com/files/mac/sg1852.htm … [see 4-b section].

 

[Reuben_J]

Of apostolic succession. He believes and is faithful to his calling. All esle will fall into place.

Other things are secondary.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Compassion, intelligence, and understanding of the “real world.” A true and deep sense of purpose and calling. A sense of humor. Approachability.

 

[Hesychios]

Thanks for the good answers! Let me add that I’m in the Anglo-Catholic camp, so the episcopal ministry and the sacraments are of the utmost importance to me. I’m with you guys there. I’ve just wondered, especially in light of “the way things are” these days in the world (and in many of our churches), if perhaps we need more well-rounded clergy. As in, we need priests or pastors whose lives are worthy of emulation. We need homiletics that are worthwhile - neither long-winded and boring nor shallow and tepid. We need ministers to whom you can go for counseling with confidence, knowing that their character reflects holiness and charity. So (speaking for myself here), even if the sacramental life and ministry is the highest priority, there are other means of grace by which the faithful are blessed. I start to wonder if they are falling into neglect in some circles (like some liturgical churches) while being overemphasized in others (like non-sacramental churches).

Just some thoughts. Looking forward to hearing more replies!

Of course there should be a balance.

There was an abusive situation in medeival Europe where many priests were ordained strictly to say Mass in small chapels. The was no congregation, no communal worship, no pastoral care of needful souls. They did it for the money.

I believe that this sort of thing, once called ‘chantry priests’ is forbidden now.

In the western church, priests might still be required to say a daily Mass even if it is done privately at home (I am not really sure). In the Orthodox church, if there is no congregation there is no liturgy.

The point is, we are all a community of believers. All of these charisms are important, they should not be neglected.

Again, in the medieval church sometimes the homiletics were seriously neglected in the parishes, and lay preachers were to be seen in the town squares. Religious orders sometimes grew out of these phenomena (I am thinking of groups like the Fratres Vitae Communis/Confraternity of the Common Life, and the earlier Ordo Fratrum Minorum/Franciscans), but it was also a seedbed for heretical movements. The restoration of good preaching in the parishes was a necessary step to bring the church back to a healthier state.

 

[Reuben_J]

Is it better to have a real priest who can’t preach well (but who can consecrate a valid Sacrament) than to have a fake priest (whatever that means to you) who is great at, say, preaching or pastoral care?

Sure. Like I said a priest really has to believe about the priesthood and faithful to his calling. You don’t want someone to take up the vocation because he wants to run away from his sexuality or on the rebound from some relationship problem. This type won’t make good priests though nothing is impossible as becoming a priest is a grace in itself. A person with a wrong intention can always be a good priest once ordained as God’s grace works in him. But if he still maintain the wrong intention then it is difficult to see how far he can go as a priest.

A priest does not necessarily be a good preacher. He needs not be someone who will bring the roof down by his mighty preaching. Oh yes, how we wish our local priest can be like Billy Graham so that most parishioners will not fall asleep or dreaming away during the homily. But good preacher is a charism (talent) and not everyone is endowed with it. Nevertheless, how many times in our memory that often the best priest would be someone who may not be a preacher at all? Because preaching can best be done silently by one’s action.

That he could be an unassuming person who would drop by at your porch to administer Holy Communion to your old bedridden aunt or someone who loves the little children and really devoted to them; someone who is really faithful to his duty, without complaining and with perseverance and patience. Mother Teresa was such person though of course she was not a priest.

A person with a great talent can be dangerous if he cannot contain the pride that comes along with it. That’s why many good preachers fall as why the angel fell once before. I wish my priest is a good preacher but more importantly I wish he is faithful to his vocation.

Second, Catholics and non-Catholic alike: when choosing a parish, what qualities do you hope to find in your priest or pastor?

In Catholicism we don’t get to choose our priest. He is posted by the Bishop to your parish and that’s why one really prays that he is a sincere priest. We don’t have any choice but have to accept whoever comes and manages the parish.

 

[gmcbroom]

Dear Reuben J,
What you said about the Bishop choosing is both correct and incorrect. In the past, and even in some countries today, if there was only one priest in the area you’d be right. You’d be stuck with that priest assigned. However, with transportation in the world today that agrument doesn’t hold much water. Take me I drive from one part of town to the other to attend the Maronite parish in my area. But, its by choice I do, and I do go to closer parishes if I can’t make it to mine in time for Divine Liturgy. That is the one thing I enjoy about the Catholic church if its Catholic it meets the requirement. While I may not be a fan of the roman patrimony, I do accept it.

 

[Hesychios]

Dear Reuben J,
What you said about the Bishop choosing is both correct and incorrect. In the past, and even in some countries today, if there was only one priest in the area you’d be right. You’d be stuck with that priest assigned. However, with transportation in the world today that agrument doesn’t hold much water. Take me I drive from one part of town to the other to attend the Maronite parish in my area. But, its by choice I do, and I do go to closer parishes if I can’t make it to mine in time for Divine Liturgy. That is the one thing I enjoy about the Catholic church if its Catholic it meets the requirement. While I may not be a fan of the roman patrimony, I do accept it.

I can remember in Chicago when one had to deal with the local parish for anything major, one registered at the local parish determined by set boundaries and that’s where one’ kids went to school or CCD. The Cardinal Archbishop decreed it.

That was a long time ago though, and I believe (in fact I am pretty sure) that it was because of the ‘white flight’ as people were trying to get away from parishes in changing neighborhoods. A lot of people hated him for it, but I give the Cardinal credit for trying to stabilize the situation, and for sending out the message that it is un-Christian to avoid the mixing of races in church and church sponsored schools.

I am sure the situation in Chicago has relaxed over the years, but the sixties and seventies were particularly difficult times.

Now your case is especially different. You are actually attending another Sui Iuris church (which is your right as a Catholic), and the Maronite parish may be so geographically big it is essentially boundaryless. It is also subject to it’s own bishop and it definitely overlaps all of the non-Maronite parishes around it.

If there were several Maronite parishes in the general area the bishop could decree boundaries for each and instruct his priests not to enroll parishioners from “over the line” if he wanted to. However that would probably be unwise, it alienates people, which was the experience in Chicago.

 

[Reuben_J]

Dear Reuben J,
What you said about the Bishop choosing is both correct and incorrect. In the past, and even in some countries today, if there was only one priest in the area you’d be right. You’d be stuck with that priest assigned. However, with transportation in the world today that agrument doesn’t hold much water. Take me I drive from one part of town to the other to attend the Maronite parish in my area. But, its by choice I do, and I do go to closer parishes if I can’t make it to mine in time for Divine Liturgy. That is the one thing I enjoy about the Catholic church if its Catholic it meets the requirement. While I may not be a fan of the roman patrimony, I do accept it.

Agreed.

Generally we do not choose parishes. Perhaps initially and after that most of us will stick to it. We do not do parish hopping ( I am not saying you do though) but what does it say of us if we do? I was born into a parish and have been there with my parents until today. As an adult I moved into the city and have been with the archdiocese ever since though I do drop into smaller parish for masses sometimes, My personal service to the church though is with my own parish - the cathedral (of the archdiocese). And if I visit my parents I would still attend my old parish.

Priests are posted by the Bishop to any parish he deems fit. Some priests may be transfered from time to time depend on the necessity and on Bishop’s decision. So yes, you may have your parish priest transferred out to another parish and another replacement for him. You may have a few priests in one parish depends on the need. Unless one change parish again if one does not like the priest, there is nothing we can do about it but to live with the priest assigned to us.

 

[Contarini]

Several threads are currently addressing issues of priestly and sacramental validity in various Christian communions. So I have a couple questions. First, it seems to me that issues of Succession outweigh other factors for Catholics. Is this correct? Is it better to have a real priest who can’t preach well (but who can consecrate a valid Sacrament) than to have a fake priest (whatever that means to you) who is great at, say, preaching or pastoral care? Note that I’m not calling anyone’s real life Church or ministers fake.

I think you’re putting the question the wrong way. Validity isn’t one more quality to weigh in deciding if someone is a “good” priest. It’s just another way of saying that a priest is a priest. It’s like saying: is a good chair better food than french fries?

There’s an Anglo-Catholic joke that goes like this:
Is episcopacy necessary to the being of the Church, or only its well-being? (This is a classic debate among Anglicans.)
The answer: It had better be necessary to the being of the Church, because it sure isn’t conducive to its well-being.

In other words, in the Catholic position you aren’t asking whether apostolic succession helps a priest do things better. The premise is that apostolic succession is what makes a priest a priest and not just another Christian with some helpful skills to build up the Body (which is basically what a pastor is in Protestantism).

Second, Catholics and non-Catholic alike: when choosing a parish, what qualities do you hope to find in your priest or pastor?

I would hope that Christians, especially Catholics, would reject the arrogant and heretical assumption that we are supposed to go around “choosing a parish” in the first place. (I know that this is a vain hope, but I cling to it anyway.)

Admittedly, the reality of the North American ecclesial scene is that you have to choose. For instance, in my town there are two Catholic churches just one block away from each other. (One was built by the Germans, the other by everyone else–mostly the Irish.) So even Catholics have to choose. (Episcopalians are much better off!)

Edwin

 

[momor]

I would hope that Christians, especially Catholics, would reject the arrogant and heretical assumption that we are supposed to go around “choosing a parish” in the first place. (I know that this is a vain hope, but I cling to it anyway.)

Admittedly, the reality of the North American ecclesial scene is that you have to choose. For instance, in my town there are two Catholic churches just one block away from each other. (One was built by the Germans, the other by everyone else–mostly the Irish.) So even Catholics have to choose. (Episcopalians are much better off!)

Edwin

In a small town there probably is no choice but in a metro area there is. I think people should pick one and stay there unless they move. Some dioceses are probably more strict than others about registering by boundary lines; mine is not. For the most part when I have had a choice I’ve chosen a parish by just trying out all the ones I’m willing to travel to and finding the one where I’m most happy. The priest has a lot to do with my initial choice. After that I would have to be pretty unhappy to make a switch. In our diocese the priests have 10 year appointments and then they are moved although their retirement date might impact that by few years one way or the other.