What makes cheating?

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chevalier

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In order to avoid watering things down and engaging in endless babble, perhaps I should lay it out in points:
  1. In your view, what makes cheating on the material level, i.e. what acts make cheating?
  2. What makes cheating on the material level, i.e. what frame of mind makes cheating?
  3. Do you believe that there are acts which are always cheating if voluntary (rape isn’t cheating, but maybe you think that sex with someone else than spouse can be justified by something else than force)?
  4. Do you believe that there are frames of mind which make cheating even if nothing happens physically?
  5. What is, in your opinion, the extent to which agreements matter? I.e. can couples (married, engaged, dating) agree that something is cheating and make it cheating for them, while something else isn’t cheating just because they allow each other to do it?
  6. If the material act is committed, what excuse do you accept?
Your answer doesn’t need to be in points, this is just to make sure the right questions are asked on my part.

Now my answers:

(Presumption: Not all sins against partners are cheating. Imprudent acts which don’t make more than a venial sin may still be cheating.)

I believe that intercourse is always cheating unless it’s rape. Blackmail isn’t always rape. I tend to have high standards for getting along with uninvited advances, especially if repeated. Therefore, getting along with unwanted advances out of fear of confrontation is still cheating in my eyes.

Internet or phone sexual conversations are still cheating because sexual enjoyment is sought and achieved. This same criterion applies to flirting. However, there are acts which I think may be sinful even if they aren’t enjoyed. First of all, voluntary sexual intercourse (anything else than rape or being mentally incapacitated through no fault of one’s own) will always be cheating, regardless of any reason people might bring up. The same goes for foreplay and open-mouth kissing (unless one would kiss family members this way, but I really doubt people do that). Closed mouth kissing may or may not be cheating, depending on the person’s cultural circumstances (some people greet family and friends with a kiss on the lips… which is not always prudent in the Western culture, but I wouldn’t call it cheating). I suppose rules for nudity can be left up to the couple, but while showing one’s naked body to others may defraud the partner, it isn’t cheating per se unless it’s “helped” by lustful teasing.

As for excuses: Of course, going to the doctor with a purely medical intention is not cheating. Even if a biologically sexual reaction occurs but is neither sought nor welcome, it still isn’t cheating. I don’t think people should be required always to seek same gender doctors.

Submitting to personal control by opposite gender officers isn’t cheating but in most cases will be imprudent. I wouldn’t call it cheating but I would have a problem with it. The same goes for skinny dipping in cross-gender company, nudism etc. One should respect himself or herself for his partner.

Rape precludes cheating if it really is rape - i.e. when the force or threat used is sufficient and when there is no enjoyment at any point. It must be clear that it’s forced sex and not sex in exchange for being left alone. This is a subtle difference and there are people who don’t get it. Again, rape includes such a tremendous pressure that people may be intimidated into behaving as if in normal intercourse.

Blackmail is not an excuse. It reduces guilt but doesn’t make innocence. There is still cheating. Sure, serious threats of great harm will break some people, but withholding benefits or blocking somoene’s career or spreading a bad rumour or whatever… Sorry, it doesn’t make an excuse.

Scenic play. In short, no way. Of course, pretending that something goes on while the screen goes black is not cheating. Perhaps maybe some kinds of hugging and dancing that wouldn’t normally be proper, if they are done without lust. Nudity is a tough issue, but I’d rather not classify it as cheating because it’s more of display than activity, unless there is some lustful behaviour added. However, getting naked for a sex scene and making it look real even if the act itself doesn’t happen, is extremely problematic and I surely wouldn’t tolerate it, let alone do it. Scenic kissing is cheating. If the partner gives permission, it’s either a sacrifice or his/her own lax morals and it’s probably still cheating. Without permission, it is cheating regardless of the circumstances. No one has to play such scenes. Even Catholics who are single should never play in kissing scenes unless they play with their partners, preferably spouses. I don’t understand how a Catholic could kiss a person without romantic or friendly affection without feeling guilt and confessing it. Even if not sin, it’s grossly imprudent and promiscuous.

Now what are your views?
 
My wife and I have a very healthy relationship. Within the context of our marriage, anything that betrays the other’s emotional trust would be cheating.

Neither she nor I have nor would we want a list of actions that constitute cheating. We do not ponder what we can get away with nor do we experiment with how close to the line we can get without crossing it. We put our effort into building the bond of trust, not tearing it down.
 
Great answer and I don’t imagine it otherwise within a healthy relationship. I don’t do some things for other reasons than fear of hell, either. But I was speaking from a more or less academical point of view. Nothing that would involve myself as the cheater.
 
I suppose at a general level, it is cheating if you have to sneak off and do it without your spouse knowing it was done. The very term “cheating” implies something done secretly that (supposedly) benefits you and robs someone else.

As for specific actions, if you would do it in full view of your spouse without remorse (and you have a healthy relationship) then it isn’t cheating. If your spouse would be emotionally hurt by it, then it is cheating.

If a person lacks good moral judgement, then he or she is incapable of maintaining a healthy relationship. In this case, that person and his or her marriage have fundamental problems deeper even than cheating. It’s not hard for me to look at the epidemic of failed marriages and the general lack of moral judgement in our society today and connect the dots.

Though both disgusting and morally reprehensible, I would not consider something like “wife swapping” to be cheating since all persons involved are involved willingly. I have heard of marriages in which it is understood by husband and wife that one or both parties will have sexual relationships outside of the marriage. Unfaithfulness that is openly part of a marriage is certainly wrong, but it is different than cheating.
 
Unfaithfulness that is openly part of a marriage is certainly wrong, but it is different than cheating.
It’s called invalid marriage. At least if it’s assumed from the beginning.

What you have just said has made me think that perhaps I have my definitions wrong. I seem to think that not all unfaithfulness is cheating, while some acts are cheating even if permitted by the spouse. Hope there’s no contradiction here. But yeah, wife swapping wouldn’t be cheating, although I would call it adultery and not fornication. Another sad think is that the weaker partner sometimes allows the stronger partner to have sex or sexual activities outside the relationship out of fear of losing that person. I have almost done it once and it was a tough lesson.
 
Chevalier…just curious, but when talk about rape and how it is not cheating only if no pleasure is derived from it, I wonder if the facts behind this would alter your perceptions. I read in a Magazine (I believe it was the may issue of Cosmo ) on rape that a vast majority of women who have been raped experienced physical orgasm while being raped. Though this is a certain pleasure, it was not intented, merely just a physical response to stimuli. Many women reported that they also felt betrayed by their bodies and confused about the context (they were raped but had some pleasure from it). This further contributes to the psychological and emotional trauma they experience after the event. Now, would that be considered cheating, even though the pleasure was not intended?
 
I’m going to be flamed for this answer, but…

No, if the orgasm wasn’t internalised.

Yes, if there was any trace of “if you didn’t want it, you may as well enjoy it when it comes” mentality. Any sort of “at least it’s good sex” kind of thinking would make cheating as the condition of non-voluntariness would be removed. It’s really hard for me to imagine a woman welcoming an orgasm from rape or otherwise consciously enjoying the sensations, but it would make cheating if it happened, and theologians have pondered the problem, so there must have been some instances… well, maybe not in stranger rape but in some sort of date rape? Any sort of treating the orgasm as a reward for being violated and humiliated would have to be cheating. Any sort of thinking that initial resistance allows you to carry on and treat it like normal sex would be cheating. In short, internalisation of the act would be cheating and spiritus auctoris showing up at any point would make it cheating.

I don’t know what kind of a survey Cosmo carried out, but would this mean that while most voluntary intercourses don’t probably result in orgasm, most instances of rape do? So rape is more likely to bring about an orgasm than a voluntary intercourse is?

Well, I certainly would feel guilty for ejaculating during rape (male by female rapes have happened), although I would probably be able to explain it to myself eventually. However, I wouldn’t share any kind of “at least once and without sin” attitude demonstrated by male victims of rape by females.

Anyway, the reason why I made the reservation about “no pleasure” is that someone could get the idea that rape can never a be a sin or cheating for the victim and that idea wouldn’t work in all the cases. Maybe 99.99% but not 100%.

Personally, I’d rather concentrate on all the reasons people bring up to justify having sex with someone else than spouse, like e.g. comforting someone or acting in a movie.
 
…here’s your best measure, anything that the other believes is cheating…IS CHEATING…👍
 
That tends to be a good measure, but I have known people who feel cheated when their new date kisses an old friend on the cheek or takes a walk with someone.
 
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chevalier:
Personally, I’d rather concentrate on all the reasons people bring up to justify having sex with someone else than spouse, like e.g. comforting someone or acting in a movie.
If you have to find a way to justify it, I think that is cheating.

And I agree with CatholicPoet “Within the context of marriage, anything that betrays the other’s emotional trust would be cheating.” I know what that means for me and my husband but I am sure it is not the same for everyone.

Rape is not cheating!

Just wondering are you considering acting in a movie/play?
 
No, but my girlfriend told me yesterday that she played a lot of kissing scenes in highschool (we’re at uni now) with strangers, mere classmates and all sorts of guys who weren’t even her boyfriends. She is perfectly content with the excuse that “it was in the script”. I don’t know if she had a boyfriend at the time of playing such scenes with someone else because our conversation was interrupted, but things point to the positive. I have made it clear I am not going to tolerate any such behaviour and that I would never allow my future daughter to do anything like that. Right now, I need to concentrate and think about the future mother of my daughter.
 
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chevalier:
No, but my girlfriend told me yesterday that she played a lot of kissing scenes in highschool (we’re at uni now) with strangers, mere classmates and all sorts of guys who weren’t even her boyfriends. She is perfectly content with the excuse that “it was in the script”.
Ah hah! We have a breakthrough!

(Sorry. I had to say it. 🙂 I think you’ll get a lot better discussion with a specific example than with generalities.)

I would say, based on what you’ve described, what your girlfriend did could in no way constitute cheating on you. Since you were not in a relationship at the time (and it sounds like the two of you didn’t even know each other), there is no way she could have betrayed your trust. Thus, she couldn’t have cheated on you.

Your problem, though, may actually be worse. If I understand correctly, you have realized that your girlfriend has a history of doing things that you consider immoral. Certainly, they are things with which you are uncomfortable. You are questioning whether or not you want to continue a relationship with her. Does that sum it up?

I don’t think there is enough information here to offer you solid advice. I think most everyone has something in his or her past that that person regrets. Of course, from what you’re saying, it doesn’t sound like she really regrets this bit of her past. If you suspect that your core values are different, that is likely to make for long-term compatibility problems.

To use an example in the news: I imagine you’ve heard about that woman in Georgia the press is calling the “Runaway Bride?” Last I heard, her intended is still planning on marrying her.

I think he might just be nuttier than she is. If I was suppose to get married in a few days and the woman skipped town on the bus to Vegas, leaving the police, the press and the rest of the nation looking at me with the kind of look you give someone you think has committed a murder and you just have to prove it, I would have, oh, I don’t know… maybe one or two second thoughts about marrying her.

I would quickly conclude that if she is so selfish and careless of my feelings now – when we aren’t even married yet – what is she going to be like in another ten years? (By the way, heading off to Vegas and leaving your fiancee in Georgia taking polygraph tests is cheating, big time!)

Of course, those folks were in a serious relationship when the incident happened. Yours happened before you were in a relationship. But there is a similarity in that in both cases there is a history of behavior that might bode ill for the future. Or, in your case, it might not.

*Trust your feelings, Luke. *(I have always wanted to say that.) Remember, girlfriends come and girlfriends go, but a wife is forever. Before you make a forever commitment, make very sure. You’ll be much happier in the long run if you do. I know that’s not much, but this situation really is something that you have to – one way or another – get squared away in your head.
 
Well, she surely wasn’t cheating on me. But if she had had a boyfriend at the time, she was cheating on him. Cheating does matter. If no boyfriend… then yeah, those actions seem immoral to me and stage is no excuse and she doesn’t regret. I can’t agree to that.
 
Something in the conversation of whether or not rape is cheating has bothered me all night. I won’t harp on this too long; I just really want to get this off my chest, so here goes…

The comparison of a man raping a woman to a woman raping a man is not a valid comparison. Men are, by their nature, physically stronger than women. While it is certainly possible for this sort of rape to happen, most men realistically don’t have to worry about it; you’re more likely to be struck my lightening. Twice.

A far more valid comparison if a man wants to contemplate what rape might be like for a woman is for him to imagine what it would be like for him to be raped by another man. For a lot of men who have a hard time imagining why rape is so traumatic, the idea of being raped by another man really brings things into perspective.
 
With no. 4 it is most definately cheatng if your frame of mind is constantly lusting and wanting that person. The act does not have to take place to call it cheating.
 
@CatholicPoet: It can be done in a group, with a gun or both.

I agree, the comparison isn’t so great, but I have a problem with the male-male rape comparison, as well. It’s so unnatural that it’s hard to imagine a man enjoying it in consensual circumstances. Really hard to find any room for enjoyment here.

However, some theologians, including Aquinas, bring up the reservation that rape is only not sinful for the victim when there’s no consent at any point, no “at least this once and without sin” kind of approach etc. I know it’s hard to imagine and extremely unlikely to happen, but I had to make the reservation for the sake of logical consistency and of truthfulness.

In a situation lighter than rape, I think it maybe doesn’t have to be cheating, but putting up with rude sexual remarks, improper touching and groping etc is wrong for a person who isn’t single. I’ve always had problems with girls allowing guys to treat them like that. Ignoring the person instead of lashing out is an option, but not ignoring the action and carrying on with the conversation and other social interaction. Otherwise, it turns into a kind of tax, toll, or however we call it, that the victim partly agrees to pay. So this wouldn’t be cheating in the classical sense, but giving it away to improper hands, anyway.

In a similar way I tend to see it when women who have partners dress provocatively (not like men can’t or don’t do that, as well), talk sexy with other guys, flirt etc.

As for my girlfriend… she was more ready to dump me than to question herself for a second about the kissing. While she said I was picking on something that happened ages ago for a stupid play, I later realised that she would dump me sooner than give a second thought to being OK with something stupid she did ages ago for a stupid play. One of those kisses which I supposed to be a big show was in fact on the cheek and not mouth, but I don’t know about other ones except they weren’t French and weren’t particularly long.

In the end, I guess I wouldn’t get a crowd of people having seen her in public sexual action, but the way she was talking about the best kiss on the stage, the worse ones etc, it doesn’t really give much hope to them being cheek only.

The kind of man I am, I could get over the thing having happened. But I can’t agree with the idea that even closed mouth kissing of randomly received partners is morally indifferent. I will never be OK with the fact that someone is OK with it.

Her basic reasoning seems to be:
  1. If it’s on the stage for a play and not out of your own motivation, then you can say it isn’t in your heart and you don’t sin by doing it.
  2. If you don’t sin by doing it, you can as well enjoy it.
And here we have a contradiction between the thesis and the premises. If you aren’t sinning just because you aren’t enjoying it, this can’t mean that you can in fact enjoy it without sin. This reasoning is a very twisted justification. And it isn’t the only example of her mind working like that. Such patterns of thought were already worrying me in her.

At any rate, she said she didn’t regret that and the only regret she had was about being honest enough to open herself and talk about her past with me (it was more like boasting or bragging than confessing to anything questionnable, FYI). She said she loved me but she couldn’t take it. She asked me never to talk or write again. We actually have talked since, but not much. She’s alternating between thinking how badly I hurt her and calling herself a whore and blaming herself for pretending to be someone else than she was.

Heck, I love her. I feel I can’t live without her. I feel so hurt to see how hurt she feels. Let alone for losing a guy she loved. She surely didn’t cheat on me at any point, even if she made jokes about that, which hurt me to the core. I don’t even know if she was single or not at that point, but she refused any discussion of it and felt more like dumping me than giving a second thought to some of her great memories she was fond of.

Well, anyway, please let’s get back to our discussion about cheating and excuses people use.
 
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