What of The Trans-Gendered? - And joining a Religious Order - Please at least try 2 understand b4 condemning me to hell

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ServiteJack said:
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So then, May “I” become a Monk? May I become a member of an Order, though not LIVE IN Community, But be a vowed member of Community Order, say The Servites?
No Gender-Marker need be spoken. I could be a vowed Servite in The Black Habit and Take the Name Mary John (Jack).
I have tried to find an absolute Papal Document on this matter - and have come up empty. During confessions every Priest has a different answer to this question: May I Be a Vowed Member of an Order WHO I am?

In my 20’s when I learned who The Servites were, My heart finally smiled in absolute joy! This was THE Order I had sought! But as a female, I could not join the Sisters, for I know me. I am like a straight-male who was born with 'the short end of the stick (so to speak) and I knew then it would not be a Holy Decision to Live in Community with women. I would by My Nature fall in love with one in time, and God Help me if I placed myself in that situation.

So i let time go by, saddened by the fact that I could never BE male - Then I learned of the Surgery - upper chest surgery and was able to have it done… the hormones changed my body giving it facial hair and muscle tone, etc. My outside is the closest to WHO I am than it can be, and anyways what is in my pants is of NO Concern to you, or anyone else But Me. Though Living in Community with men, well i might for whatever reason become an unholy presence for some male friar. Who Knows.

But I live alone - own this home - and am now 40. Perhaps I am too old anyways.
But Where is OUR Place? Being gay, it isn’t about SEX. it’s who you Love.
Trans-gendered is that, along with (clearly) Gender! Look back on all the people you have loved sir? They were women? Congrats. you are not gay sir. Mine? Women. and I/WHO I AM remains male - where ever the gender-seed is, the gender-mind - the gender ism is, it is male. I can not change that - have tried for most of my life.

But now - today… What do The Papal Documents have to say about others like me?
Because there are many. Perhaps due to the hormones in our Milk… Perhaps in the 60’s and early 70’s it was like with me, the doctors of women with a history of miscarriages were given hormonal shots all the way through - though in my family case it was The RH Factor, and being o- I’d have lived regardless. But that’s neither important today.

Today I need to know: DO I have options… Or can I never be a Monk/or a Friar or even a Deacon?!
Was told it was up to the parish - or up to The Order - But Who do I ask to get to The Servite Head and ask?
Although I have met The Very Holy Servite, Father Peter Mary Rookey, 96 years old, give or take! of Chicago. But I have trouble getting him long enough to speak with him.
Any Priest here, could - would you take this up with him, and to whomever he says is above him? I want HIS Words though, since I know of His Holiness.

Now all is out here all out in the open.
Where/What does the Church have to say about all of this - and of me.
Are there options for me and others Like me? - or not a chance.

In Jesus Through Mary,
Jack Joseph
**

“Mercy is Highly under-rated”
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I doubt the Church has an official proclamation in this respect, transexuals maybe, but someone who is actually trans-gender? unlikely it’s rare, extremely rare, I however doubt a Religious Order would turn you away, the soul is willing, but the flesh is weak, you are the same as every other Brother/Friar/Priest etc, you are a sinner, and so am i, you were just born in a grey area of sexuality, not truly understood, and that rare the Church pays it little attention.

You are in my prayers my Brother, but please if you feel you are called to religious life contact the Religious Superior of the Order you are interested in, they will probably be interested in what gender you are biologically (if you are truly transgender though, this wont help as genetically, your a genetic anomaly), but if you are male, no monastery will turn you away, if you are female no convent will turn you away.

If you want a definitive answer, ask the Religious Superior of the Order, or your Bishop, as he who ordains, has the final say on who shall be ordained (if your biologically female though, you can’t be ordained, the Church does not have that authority, please remember that).
 
… my dear friend ,

… i don’t have the answer but will offer some thoughts of my own and not church teaching that may help you deal with this predicament , i don’t have the same problem but have thought about it for a while and very briefly i’ll offer my own insights , when god created adam there was only one man and he contained masculinity and feminity in one man , he was man and woman in one man but solely male anatomomy , when he was lonely god put him in a deep sleep and took out one rib and the femininity to create eve , and they remained one man though 2 truly , and with children they become a human trinity being 3 but 1 as with god – created in the image and likeness of god , it is controversial but i think the new adam jesus was modeled on the first adam prior to eve the woman being taken out of him , so jesus is a man and woman in one man , though only fukll male anatomy , there can be many reasons in cases like yours but often the mix up is due to original sin interfering with the new identity of olely male or female after eve was taken out of adam , you to a degree even being mixed up are very like adam before eve was taken out and also jesus himself quite possibly in my opine , you should not feel too freakish about it all being the point , i’m not sure what religious orders will say should you approach them but generally the church does not approve of any sort or type of sex change , my own opinion is that in time science and medicine will e able to conclusively show the church if a man is trapped in a womans body or not such as by showing it in the mind etc with no doubts , maybe if it’s 70 % or more the wrong sex in the body the church may allow a sex correction and not a sex change as this is correcting a real defect from original sin in genuine cases , but a sex correction can only be done if the final result is perfect with full reproductive capabilities which is currently not possible i believe , as to dating or marriage perhaps a certificate showing an accepted sex correction by the church would do good , and one would have to alert the potential suitor / s prior to embarking on any sort of romantic eelatioship as others may well become homicidal / suicidal if they find out later – ads on internet dating sights could fix this prob perhaps , like i say these are my own thoughts on the subject and not church teaching , at present the church cannot verify scientifically with absolute certainty as to the wrong sex in a body and the correction is not possible , but who knows what the future holds ??? , god will fix these problems once you leave this world too – don’t worry about that , i’m praying for you also ,

… may god bless and love you 👍🙂 ,

… john …

“Mercy is Highly under-rated”
 
There are a few things that bother me about the OP’s questions and personal story.

First off- I can’t imagine that getting body modifying surgeries would please God. That is similar to many of these women who want plastic surgery to make them “sexier” or “prettier”. Instead of accepting how God made them, they take it into their own hands, as if they know better than God. Same goes for the transgendered.

And as for the desire to become a Servite or deacon ect.- Sometimes we need to accept our limitations. We need to accept who we are, what we are and what we cannot be. REGARDLESS OF GENDER OR TRANS-GENDER. It seems that you are not looking inward at what you have been given, rather, you’re looking to be something that is problematic.

Personally, I’d love to be an apologist. I WISH that could be my calling. But it’s just not.
And me wishing it to be so will not make it so. God has other plans for me.

We have to be careful not to confuse the deep wants of our hearts from the true plans of our Lord.

That being said, I hope you find your path in life. No one said it was going to be easy, or that we’d always attain what our hearts desire. Sometimes our lesson is found in the suffering. God Bless.
 
In my church, the Orthodox Christian Church, homosexuality is considered immoral; I’m not sure of the church’s stance on trans-gender-ism. But I know that my church does not consider homosexuality a direct road to hell. The Orthodox Christian Church, simply stated, believes that those who go to hell are simply those who did not follow Jesus’ commands to Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. The church’s mission is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those imprisoned, care for the poor, elderly and ill, and basically “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” The church believes that by fulfilling these two commandments of Jesus, you will not go to hell. It has it’s moral code, but the emphasis is not on sin but, rather, on what has a person contributed to the Kingdom of God and to our fellow human brothers and sisters during that person’s lifetime? God is your Father and He loves you more than any earthly father ever could love you. He understands more than any human being can ever understand. Stop focusing on yourself as a transgendered person; instead, see yourself as a loved child of God with many gifts you can use to love God and love your neighbor. Stop labeling yourself. Your focus should be on the totality of the person that you are; not on one particular aspect of who you are/ Trust in God; He is constant, loving, merciful and knows the human heart and mind better than we can ever know ourselves.
 
jrgiancola said:
In my church, the Orthodox Christian Church, homosexuality is considered immoral; I’m not sure of the church’s stance on trans-gender-ism. ** But I know that my church does not consider homosexuality a direct road to hell.** The Orthodox Christian Church, simply stated, believes that those who go to hell are simply those who did not follow Jesus’ commands to Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. The church’s mission is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those imprisoned, care for the poor, elderly and ill, and basically “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” The church believes that by fulfilling these two commandments of Jesus, you will not go to hell. It has it’s moral code, but the emphasis is not on sin but, rather, on what has a person contributed to the Kingdom of God and to our fellow human brothers and sisters during that person’s lifetime? God is your Father and He loves you more than any earthly father ever could love you. He understands more than any human being can ever understand. Stop focusing on yourself as a transgendered person; instead, see yourself as a loved child of God with many gifts you can use to love God and love your neighbor. Stop labeling yourself. Your focus should be on the totality of the person that you are; not on one particular aspect of who you are/ Trust in God; He is constant, loving, merciful and knows the human heart and mind better than we can ever know ourselves.
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I’m curious about the basis for that teaching because Scripture is clear and unambiguous stating homosexuals will not be saved.
 
I have to admit that I have trouble understanding people in your situation. If you are physically female, and you have had a genetic test to see if your chromosomes are XX, then I think you’re female, no matter how you feel inside. I can’t imagine why someone would want to mutilate his or her body to become the opposite sex. I also can’t imagine why anyone would want to make the choice to go on hormones for the rest of his or her life, unless it is absolutely necessary for some reason.

I have always thought that there are a lot of women who seem “masculine” and a lot of men who seem “feminine.” I don’t see anything wrong with this. It just seems to me that if you’re born a woman but have more masculine tastes, then why not drive a truck or a bus for a living or maybe become a construction worker?

It is also possible to have a short hairstyle, not bother with jewelry, and wear comfortable pants and shirts, and still be a woman.

In other words, I don’t see why people see themselves as limited by the sex they were physically born into. I always wonder why a woman with masculine tastes couldn’t just find herself a man with feminine tastes and then maybe even have some children.

It just seems to me that this whole transgender thing is way more complicated than it has to be.

I guess this shows that I really don’t understand.
 
thistle said:
I’m curious about the basis for that teaching because Scripture is clear and unambiguous stating homosexuals will not be saved.
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The OCC, like the RCC, is not sola scriptura. It is based on two thousand years of the Scripture and the traditions of the church fathers. It’s concept of salvation centers around Jesus and His redemptive action and what we as human beings are expected to do to be saved. The focus is not on our sins, but on our whole life in general. It’s like the parable where Jesus separates the goats from the sheep. If you do it to the least of my brothers, you did it to me; conversely, even though you followed the letter of the law, if you did not do it to the least of my brothers, you did not do it to me. Interesting parable; you should look for it. I forget which gospel it is in. You also have to remember that anything Paul or any of the NT letter writers said has to be in harmony with what Jesus said. The NT is gospel-centric. Paul can not contradict Jesus. Any interpretation of Paul’s writings that contradicts what Jesus said is an incorrect interpretation. Paul often spoke inconsistencies: He who believes Jesus is the Son of God will be saved; he who fornicates will not be saved. What if you love Jesus as the Son of God but do occasionally commit a sexual sin? Sin is sin, no matter what kind of sin. Pride, sloth, envy, gluttony, selfishness, turning your back on someone in need (as the Good Samaritan did not do)… these sins are just as sinful as any sexual sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Who among us has the right to cast the first stone. I know I do not have that right. I try very hard not to sin because I love God very much. But I occasionally fall into sin just like everyone else. My prayer is that at my death, the sum total of the love I’ve shown God and my neighbor will allow God to have mercy on me and save me. Jesus accepted the punishment for my sins; the only question left is do I deserve God’s mercy at the end of my life?
 
jrgiancola said:
The OCC, like the RCC, is not sola scriptura. It is based on two thousand years of the Scripture and the traditions of the church fathers. It’s concept of salvation centers around Jesus and His redemptive action and what we as human beings are expected to do to be saved. The focus is not on our sins, but on our whole life in general. It’s like the parable where Jesus separates the goats from the sheep. If you do it to the least of my brothers, you did it to me; conversely, even though you followed the letter of the law, if you did not do it to the least of my brothers, you did not do it to me. Interesting parable; you should look for it. I forget which gospel it is in. You also have to remember that anything Paul or any of the NT letter writers said has to be in harmony with what Jesus said. The NT is gospel-centric. Paul can not contradict Jesus. Any interpretation of Paul’s writings that contradicts what Jesus said is an incorrect interpretation. Paul often spoke inconsistencies: He who believes Jesus is the Son of God will be saved; he who fornicates will not be saved. What if you love Jesus as the Son of God but do occasionally commit a sexual sin? Sin is sin, no matter what kind of sin. Pride, sloth, envy, gluttony, selfishness, turning your back on someone in need (as the Good Samaritan did not do)… these sins are just as sinful as any sexual sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Who among us has the right to cast the first stone. I know I do not have that right. I try very hard not to sin because I love God very much. But I occasionally fall into sin just like everyone else. My prayer is that at my death, the sum total of the love I’ve shown God and my neighbor will allow God to have mercy on me and save me. Jesus accepted the punishment for my sins; the only question left is do I deserve God’s mercy at the end of my life?
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Whether a person is saved or not is determined by the state of their soul at death. If you die in a state of mortal sin then you condemn yourself to Hell. After death its too late. Its not a case of the good outweighing the bad in your life that saves you.
So in the case of homosexual activity, heterosexual adultery, theft or whatever other grave sin has been committed you cannot be saved unless you sincerely repent, receive absolution and die in a state of grace.

Apologies to the OP for digressing.
 
That’s the RCC belief; that is not the belief of my church the Orthodox Christian Church. To further comment on your previous posting, the following passages are taken from the Letter of Paul to the Galatians: There are some who wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. A person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. If justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing. For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse. No one is justified before God by the law is clear. Christ ransomed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW. Before faith came, we were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed. Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian for Christ that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. For freedom, Christ set us free. So stand firm and do not submit to the yoke of slavery. You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Gal. 1-6. But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter. Rom. 7:6 A former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection. For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. When He speaks of a new covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. This is a symbol of the present time, in which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the worshipper in conscience but only in matters of food and drink and various ritual washings; regulations concerning the flesh, imposed until the time of the new order. Hebrews, 7-9 In short, Christians are not even subject to the dictates of the Mosaic law which forbade just about everything including homosexuality. We are under the new testament or covenant. Under the new covenant, every sin ever committed, and that will ever be committed, was punished and paid for by Jesus. God’s JUSTICE is satisfied for all time. What remains is God’s mercy. The defining criteria for salvation is whether the person is deserving of God’s mercy. How do we become deserving of God’s mercy? By doing just as Jesus commanded and did when He was on earth: Show mercy to everyone who we encounter in our lives. Forgive everyone; bless and pray for those who hurt us; give whatever we can to help the most wretched of God’s children; and do not judge whether one will be saved and another condemned. Jesus said that we will be judged by how we judge others. If we judge others without mercy, we too will be judged without mercy. That’s why He told us not to judge others period. Why, there must be thousands of ways in each person’s lifetime to show mercy. John Paul II wrote of this in his encyclical “Rich in Mercy.” This excellent document explains salvation in its totality. I’m not Catholic, but I encourage everyone I know to read it. God bless you.
 
This is the teaching of the Orthodox Christian Church regarding final judgment taken from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America website. I believe it is true.

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:
Code: 
Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and
there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.
The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). **It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. **The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There.is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.

The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God. Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory.

The Last Judgment is not an act of overthrowing, the judgment of the soul at the time of its separation from the body, but rather to effect a union with the transformed, risen body with which the soul will continue to live forever. After the separation, the soul is conscious and, consequently, feels, understands, and in general exercises all the energies of the soul.(Revelation 6:9-10, 7:15; 1 Peter 3: 19; Hebrews 12:23; Luke 16:27-28). The word “sleep”, by which death is characterized, does not refer to the soul, but to the body. In Matthew 27:52 we read that many Saints, who had fallen asleep, were raised. The Last Judgment will take place on the second coming of Jesus Christ, a strong belief of the Church, recorded in THE CREED that “He (Jesus Christ) shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead”. The time of the second coming of Jesus Christ is not known and, according to Revelation, cannot be conjectured by any means.

Christ the Author of Salvation, Judgement and Ever-lasting life. In short, in regards to death we are confronted with salvation, judgment, and everlasting life in the name of Jesus Christ. The Christian is assured of two things: that he will find the means of salvation in Christ and His true Church and that his future destiny depends upon his present life.
 
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