What real presence views are in line with OT

[benhur]

Every timeline of Jesus’ ministry I have looked at puts the “Bread of Life” discourse either near the end of His second year of ministry (about 20 % of the timelines) or midway through the third year. So again most of His disciples that walked away would not have believed He was the Messiah anyway.

OK thanks. I was more scientific -chapter 6 is first trimester of 21 chapters of John …? The disciples that walked away did not think Jesus was their type of Messiah but Messiah yes. They did not believe in the “program”( Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension) . Jesus said He knew they did not believe “from the beginning”. They did not believe way before the “eating” discourse. They followed Him for a reason(s), and Jesus intimates He knew what it was and it was quite a carnal, wrong reason(s). He knew their hearts. The eating discourse finally separated the goats from the lambs, the men from the boys and purposely so…Why do you think they followed Him if he was not their Messiah ?

 

[benhur]

If what you believe is true, then Jesus died for nothing.
Baptism is the open veil to God for which non-believers are to enter into the eternal Kingdom of God.

No, Jesus came that we might “believe” and have eternal life. Show me one instance in the bible or one church that will baptize a consenting adult who does not believe in the Gospel or as you say that Jesus died, and died for them. Why even in your infant baptisms, someone must believe on behalf of the infant.

 

[benhur]

Also, to add to your point benhur, John 1:14 ‘The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.’

I feel we need to ‘eat’ his word…

Amen !

 

[benhur]

Wrong-(that subsequent Passovers down to today do not save a Jew from any such thing anymore);

So the Passover in the OT saved folks like Mary and Joseph and David etc ? Do you even admit that the Passover was first a remembrance of what God did in Egypt ? The words repeated at the table by Joseph and David and byJews even today are straight out of “Exodus”. Forget jumping to NT and "foreshadowing’’ and first understand the festival on it’s own meaning. Then we can garnish proper NT foreshadowing.

 

[benhur]

Wrong, we are save by the blood and sacrifice of Jesus Christ the lamb of God who takes away the sin of world (the crucifixion) in order to be saved. Faith can never save anyone. Satan believes in Jesus and the Father and these demons are forever damned.

Satan also has his false religions, some who also have “elements” containing their god’s like wafers ect. Just because Satan does it -have faith or ritual wafers, does not make it wrong for us . One can not deny we are justified by faith . Someone might take away from your post that faith does not save but Calvary does . Then all non-believers, who by definition have no faith, are saved, by Calvary.

Faith alone does not save anyone. It takes an act of God in our presence in order for one to be saved, and that is celebrated in the Eucharist after salvation is gained by the baptism in the Holy Trinity =God.

Again, one more thing to do to be saved ( what P’s call sanctified). Actually I partly agree that we have salvation first , then celebrate thru Eucharist. Hence Eucharist does not save, but does sanctify, strengthen etc. .Jesus however says if you don’t eat, you don’t walk into heaven. So to some literalists Eucharist is not just a celebration but is necessary for salvation.

Recalling a past event does not save anyone.

Bingo ! It is not meant to

.Living in that past event made present by divine providence saves all peoples in all ages, that is what the OT Passover celebrated and foreshadowed the Eucharist RP of the true Passover Lamb which is commanded by divine law to consume in order to be given eternal life in the Son of God.

How exactly was God’s presence made in OT Passover ?

A recalling of a historical event does nothing for those who are perishing in the present.

Another oxymoron. So we Eucharist -give thanks to Christ for our salvation, but we are "presently perishing’’ ?

Your symbolic or remembering of a last supper, never engages the divine presence of

How do you know ? The bible does say , “He inhabits the praise of His people”. Can you see that He is not at non-RP services ?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No, Jesus came that we might “believe” and have eternal life. Show me one instance in the bible or one church that will baptize a consenting adult who does not believe in the Gospel or as you say that Jesus died, and died for them. Why even in your infant baptisms, someone must believe on behalf of the infant.

Please allow me to down shift the context of the revealed mysteries of God, so that we do not talk pass each other.

Jesus teaches clearly that “NO ONE CANNOT SEE NOR ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITHOUT BEING BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT”. John 3:3,5

Jesus say’s nothing about one having only faith to see or enter the Kingdom of God. One is never born again by a profession of faith only.

The profession of faith has always been attached with water baptism for one to enter and see the Kingdom of God.

A born again experience from a profession of faith only: is a man made doctrine from the late 18th century.

In retrospect; Baptism is being born of water and the Spirit with a profession of faith by the consenting adult or by the parents and God parents of an infant.

What is clear here from Jesus teaching, that before baptism one is outside the Kingdom of God identifying these as unbelievers. One becomes a true Christian or born (anothen) a new by water baptism in the Holy Spirit and enters into the Kingdom of God becoming a believer.

This believer by baptism, is when the baptized “first believed” because a public profession of faith is made by the unbeliever amongst the apostles.

Re-read your faith scriptures again and everywhere a profession of faith is mentioned that saved, it is followed by a baptism, or the subject of water baptism is mentioned with the profession of faith, just as the Catholic Church has practiced the biblical practice of baptism with a profession of faith In Jesus Christ.

Your new man made doctrine removed itself from the waters of baptism in the Spirit with a profession of faith of the original Apostles Creed. And replaced it with a profession of faith with no apostolic credo to profess a true faith in Jesus Christ, in short the altar call is never a sacrament.

I hope we are reaching an understanding between the difference of an unbeliever who is not baptized becoming a believer by a profession of faith (apostles credo) with water baptism is when we first truly believe in Jesus Christ.

Disposition of the baptized can prevent or welcome the graces of God, in any case by baptism God’s grace is still poured out on the individual.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

benhur;12297481]So the Passover in the OT saved folks like Mary and Joseph and David etc ?

First of all no one was saved in the old testament because the Holy Spirit and the Word Incarnate was not revealed to them yet.

So your take on one being saved is not even heard of in the Old Testament Passover. Although the prophets pre-announce the water baptism that is coming that will remove Israel’s sin in a single day.

Let us not confuse the Old Testament Passover with a late invention of one being saved from a profession of faith only. Circumcision is what allowed those into a covenant with God, Baptism is when one enters into the new and everlasting covenant with God.

Do you even admit that the Passover was first a remembrance of what God did in Egypt ?

The consummation of a lamb and pouring of blood over the house dwellings is what prevented the first born Hebrews from death.

The remembrance does not come from Moses, the remembrance comes from God to do this as a perpetual rite for all time.

When this divine law is celebrated the historical Exodus is made present to all Jews who celebrate Passover in God’s “remembrance” = Zakor, when God makes His presence known in His divine rites.

The presence of God is made known in many of these celebrated rites including the Passover.

The words repeated at the table by Joseph and David and byJews even today are straight out of “Exodus”. Forget jumping to NT and "foreshadowing’’ and first understand the festival on it’s own meaning. Then we can garnish proper NT foreshadowing

.

We only touched on the Old Testament Passover. Where the misunderstanding lies, is when you try and force a late 18th century theology into the OT Passover. I only reveal to you briefly the reality of the celebrated OT Passover.

Do you really believe the divine Words revealed in the command by God, “to do this in remembrance of me”, defines God as telling you to remember what He did in the past in both Old and New Testaments?

I am only revealing to you that “to do this in remembrance of me” is much much more than recalling a past divine act by God from one space and time in history. God commands us to do this, so as to make His presence known to all from one divine act made present for all ages. This is what the OT Passover Lamb and NT Passover Lamb is always celebrating a divine act of God does not end, but is made present to all ages when we obey His command of Word “to do this in memory of me”.

Peace be with you

 

[benhur]

Jesus teaches clearly that “NO ONE CANNOT SEE NOR ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITHOUT BEING BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT”. John 3:3,5

Clearly ? In the context of the conversation when he said that not so clear. To back that up to many good graces have been poured out to those who have not been water baptized or not yet at least.But another topic.

Jesus say’s nothing about one having only faith to see or enter the Kingdom of God.

At times he does.

One is never born again by a profession of faith only.

See first comment above.Never is strong word.

The profession of faith has always been attached with water baptism for one to enter and see the Kingdom of God.

Yes sand faith belief comes first. Hence we never baptize an unbeliever, which started this whole conversation. Can a dead spirit or one not born of the spirit have this faith ? I think not.

A born again experience from a profession of faith only: is a man made doctrine from the late 18th century.

Not so.

In retrospect; Baptism is being born of water and the Spirit with a profession of faith by the consenting adult or by the parents and God parents of an infant.

Yes and no. It is definitely a profession of faith(that one has been born of spirit), done by the new spirit in us already.

What is clear here from Jesus teaching, that before baptism one is outside the Kingdom of God identifying these as unbelievers.

Yes

One becomes a true Christian or born (anothen) a new by water baptism in the Holy Spirit and enters into the Kingdom of God becoming a believer.

NO. Baptism in water is in the name of the Godhead and baptism of the Holy ghost is something else. And I stick to my guns that one believes before water baptism.

Re-read your faith scriptures again and everywhere a profession of faith is mentioned that saved, it is followed by a baptism, or the subject of water baptism is mentioned with the profession of faith, just as the Catholic Church has practiced the biblical practice of baptism with a profession of faith In Jesus Christ.

That is right. First comes belief, even a profession of it and then water baptism. That they happen so close together does not make the latter (baptism) the effectuator. I still say you can not make a profession of faith without being born of the spirit, being regenerated. Proof of that is obedience to the water baptism. It seals the deal.

in short the altar call is never a sacrament.

Agreed. But no rite/ritual makes you born again. I still can’t see the wind as it passes thru the trees as surely as we can’t see exactly when one is born of the spirit to use Jesus’s analogy.

I hope we are reaching an understanding between the difference of an unbeliever who is not baptized becoming a believer by a profession of faith (apostles credo) with water baptism is when we first truly believe in Jesus Christ.

All I am is stressing is that one believes first (and it’s implications) before baptism. That carries over to our thread topic that faith justifies and feasts or Remembrances sanctify but not justify… When Jesus said "eat me’’ to see heaven it was not for justification (to be “saved”) but to have faith itself in Him (Incarnation,Crucifixion, Resurrection,and Ascension),something the disciples that walked away did not have, from the beginning of following the Lord…Thanks for your patience, Blessings

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

benhur;12298439].Never is strong word

.

Never is applied to agree with Jesus who teaches that “NO ONE” will see nor enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit which means baptism according to all Christian theologians from antiquity.

What Protestantism changed the scriptures when it added to God’s Word the strong word “Alone to faith”, when God’s Word reads that “Faith alone does not save you”.

Here is where we part theologies, sola fide is new faith introduced by men. Water baptism in the Spirit is revealed by God.

Can a dead spirit or one not born of the spirit have this faith ? I think not.
Not so.

You contradict sacred scripture here. We were all dead spirits before we came to believe. By Baptism God gives us a new Spirit that resurrects our dead spirits. That is simply why Jesus came and died for, so that God can give us a new spirit in Himself. This is only achieved by baptism. Baptism gives us the graces and courage to have faith in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Baptism in water is in the name of the Godhead and baptism of the Holy ghost is something else

.

benhur, there is only one baptism by which man is saved in Jesus Christ, when the blessed Trinity is present.

Do not confuse the biblical sacrament of Confirmation =anointing of the Holy Ghost to be a separate baptism. The anointing or confirmation in the Holy Spirit is for the baptized, it is not for the unbeliever. Something you should look into, instead of taking at face value, who ever taught you such a thing of two baptism’s.

Agreed. But no rite/ritual makes you born again.

Then your problem is with Jesus teachings who gives this baptismal rite and commission to do in all ages for all peoples, nations and tongue. Your argument is never with the Catholic Church for she only obeys what Jesus commissioned her to do baptize in the name of the blessed Trinity and to forgive sin.

I enjoy sharing with you here; suffice it to say, the biblical term from “remembrance” is not used and practiced by Jews and Catholics the way you understand remembrance from the English translation, you need Sacred Tradition from the Apostles to grasp at this apostolic faith here, not a faith that stems from the 18th century.

We differ in what is defined as a biblical divine sacrament of God revealed from Passover, baptism, communion covenants with God are not symbolic but are real and present to God’s people, this we practice in the Catholic Church since apostolic times.

Peace be with you

 

[benhur]

Never is applied to agree with Jesus who teaches that “NO ONE” will see nor enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit which means baptism according to all Christian theologians from antiquity.

I agree one must be born again to enter, must. Born of water has several interpretations.

What Protestantism changed the scriptures when it added to God’s Word the strong word “Alone to faith”, when God’s Word reads that “Faith alone does not save you”.
ere is where we part theologies, sola fide is new faith introduced by men. Water baptism in the Spirit is revealed by God.

Sola fide does not rule out works and their proper place and efficacy.

You contradict sacred scripture here. We were all dead spirits before we came to believe. By Baptism God gives us a new Spirit that resurrects our dead spirits.

No that is contradictory, that only in baptism are our spirits revived, as we rise out of the Water alive in Christ and then believe. We believe before we go under, so then is the efficacy of baptism new faith ? I still think not for I would not baptize anyone who does not have new faith already and a dead spirit does not have this new faith

Do not confuse the biblical sacrament of Confirmation =anointing of the Holy Ghost to be a separate baptism.

There is more than one application of the"baptism" word in the NT

Then your problem is with Jesus teachings who gives this baptismal rite and commission to do in all ages for all peoples, nations and tongue. Your argument is never with the Catholic Church for she only obeys what Jesus commissioned her to do baptize in the name of the blessed Trinity and to forgive sin.

Well that is because the Church baptizes but the Lord makes one born again first. He did not say go make everyone born again. He did say preach (faith/regeneration comes by hearing) and (then) baptize. In between the Lord illumines, revives a spirit to “see”.

I enjoy sharing with you here; suffice it to say, the biblical term from “remembrance” is not used and practiced by Jews and Catholics the way you understand remembrance from the English translation, you need Sacred Tradition from the Apostles to grasp at this apostolic faith here, not a faith that stems from the 18th century.

This is deeper than semantics. Of course I can remember that 2+2= 4 or Columbus sailed the ocean blue, but to remember my father or any loved one is a special moment of remembrance reviving their /our reality of experience. So perhaps you are right in upping the ante on just what remembrance means, as it relates to our Lord’s Supper. But is He made Present by the breaking of the bread and our remembrance (the ordinance) or must it mean that it is only possible if He becomes the Bread ? The original passover was the former in my opinion. “Remembrance” is not used for the feast but "memorial’’, “token”, “sign” are. (Exodus 13:9,16). His Presence is not in any of the "elements’’ but perhaps in the feast itself or the observance thereof and it’s symbolism. The Bread standing for purity, purity to strive for (and finally attained by Christ alone). The One loaf/cake being broken for all to eat.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

benhur;12299736]I agree one must be born again to enter, must. Born of water has several interpretations.

There is only one teaching by which Jesus reveals one to be born a new (again) of water and spirit which is always baptism.

I would agree with you although Protestantism in it’s new sola fide doctrine, has developed many new interpretations of what born of water and spirit can mean from the late 18th centuries.

Sola fide does not rule out works and their proper place and efficacy

.

Sorry, your interpretation among the many different interpretations of Sola fide from non-Catholic Christians contradicts one another. You have no one sola fide among protestant traditions to which all of you can agree, so as interpret the correct infallible teachings of Jesus from sacred scripture.

There is more than one application of the"baptism" word in the NT

In the Catholic Church since apostolic times there is only one water baptism for which all men can be saved in Jesus Christ.

It is true among protestant sola fide traditions there are many, many different types of baptism from different interpretations from the same scripture with a late 18th century sola fide traditions, for example the Mormons, JW’s, Assemblies of God “Christians” all have different baptism’s with different meanings which contradict the teachings of Jesus 'Christ and the first century Catholic Church from the apostles.

Well that is because the Church baptizes but the Lord makes one born again first

.

Your view is not supported by scripture nor the sacred Traditions from the original apostles. To be born from above=born anew taken from the original Word from Jesus "
Anothen", what late protestants since the 18th century interpret to be born again, when it was Nicodemus who misunderstood Jesus teachings of being born “Anothen” with being born again from the flesh.

Baptism makes one born “anothen” of water and Spirit. Faith alone does nothing without the works of Jesus Christ in the sacrament of water baptism in order to receive the Spirit.

He did not say go make everyone born again. He did say preach (faith/regeneration comes by hearing) and (then) baptize. In between the Lord illumines, revives a spirit to “see”.

After the resurrection Jesus commissioned His Church with all power and authority to baptize all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

NO it’s true, Jesus never states to make everyone born again in the new tradition from sola fide, which does not make one born anew “anothen” in water and Spirit.

What sola fide has proven since it’s invention by men. Is that it enters diverse individual interpretations of sacred scripture that causes contradictions with those holding to different sola fide man made traditions.

In Catholicism there is only one baptism by which Jesus commissioned the apostles and His Church to do since Pentecost.

It takes a sacramental baptized believer to see the teachings of Jesus Christ manifested in His Catholic Church in the Kingdom of God for the past 2000 years.

Faith alone does not save you and faith alone does not allow you to enter or see the kingdom of God. Only Jesus can offer His real presence for our sins in order to enter the kingdom of God by God’s way of being washed clean in the waters of baptism when one receives the Holy spirit who reveals, teaches and recalls to our minds all that Jesus said and did for our salvation. Then we act on the Works of Jesus by eating His flesh and drinking His blood in His Eucharist, which is a sacrament most blessed than baptism.

peace be with you

 

[benhur]

There is only one teaching by which Jesus reveals one to be born a new (again) of water and spirit which is always baptism.

Yes, but only per CC

I would agree with you although Protestantism in it’s new sola fide doctrine, has developed many new interpretations of what born of water and spirit can mean from the late 18th centuries.

I would say only a few interpretations.

Sorry, your interpretation among the many different interpretations of Sola fide from non-Catholic Christians contradicts one another. You have no one sola fide among protestant traditions to which all of you can agree, so as interpret the correct infallible teachings of Jesus from sacred scripture.

I only speak for myself and what others say is irrelevant to our conversation of faith and works.

In the Catholic Church since apostolic times there is only one water baptism for which all men can be saved in Jesus Christ.

I would agree that there is one water baptism but not that it justifies/saves you.

It is true among protestant sola fide traditions there are many, many different types of baptism

Again “many” is subjective . Jesus speaks of baptism of fire, of the cross, of the Holy Spirit and of water. That is what I meant. I do not think you deny those baptisms.

Your view is not supported by scripture nor the sacred Traditions from the original apostles. To be born from above=born anew taken from the original Word from Jesus "
Anothen", what late protestants since the 18th century interpret to be born again, when it was Nicodemus who misunderstood Jesus teachings of being born “Anothen” with being born again from the flesh.

That is funny because I thought KJV was the 17 th century who say “born again”. Makes no difference to me, for I see regeneration, born again, born from above or born of the spirit as one in the same thing…The OT saints were not "born of water "(baptism) and yet Nicodemus was to have known one is born of water ? Your interpretation can only mean Nicodemus was to know the workings of the NT in this matter. That is why I do not think Jesus meant water baptism. Not even John’s water baptism gave new life. Whatever Jesus meant it was to have been common knowledge for a teacher of the people and hence He chided Nicodemus for not knowing.

Baptism makes one born “anothen” of water and Spirit.

Yes per CC and some other denominations.

Faith alone does nothing without the works of Jesus Christ in the sacrament of water baptism in order to receive the Spirit.

Sorry. That is just not the reality for millions of Christians, confining the work of the Spirit to a sacrament. Like putting the wind in a box, and telling it when to come out (which can not for it dies in the box). Too many folks receive the Spirit , are born from above, believe** before **the sacrament.

What sola fide has proven since it’s invention by men. Is that it enters diverse individual interpretations of sacred scripture that causes contradictions with those holding to different sola fide man made traditions.

Diverse interpretations proves nothing, just as unified interpretations may not either. Why JW’s are quite unified in doctrine also.

It takes a sacramental baptized believer to see the teachings of Jesus Christ manifested in His Catholic Church in the Kingdom of God for the past 2000 years.

I agree most folks are water baptized but that many “see” before the rite. There were even those that would postpone their baptism till late in life, yet they "saw’’ beforehand.

Faith alone does not save you and faith alone does not allow you to enter or see the kingdom of God. Only Jesus can offer His real presence for our sins in order to enter the kingdom of God by God’s way of being washed clean in the waters of baptism when one receives the Holy spirit who reveals, teaches and recalls to our minds all that Jesus said and did for our salvation. Then we act on the Works of Jesus by eating His flesh and drinking His blood in His Eucharist, which is a sacrament most blessed than baptism.

And yet by works of righteousness we are not saved but as you say by His Works and faith in those works we are saved. And we are saved for and unto good works . Yes, we eat Him spiritually per OT and NT understanding.