What really happened during Vatican II?

[dizzy_dave]

Dr. Bombay:

That link is a nice piece of propaganda. Neat citations and everything. Very nice. Too bad it directly contradicts Pope Benedict XVI regarding the priest and the proper orientation of liturgical prayer. See The Spirit of the Liturgy.

I’ve read *More Catholic Than the Pope. *Don’t see that it has any relevance to this discussion. I’m not an SSPXer, nor do I subscribe to many of their outlandish positions. Like all branches cut off from the True Vine, they will eventually whither.

Of course the St. Michael Prayer was an add on. But it was not an addition to the Mass. The only significant changes made to the Mass between Trent and 1960 were the additions of feasts for new saints or additional feasts for Our Lord and the Blessed Mother. Yes, I can say that the Mass was the same, at least in regard to the Ordinary and Propers of the Season. In fact, I just did say it.

Hey, I’m not at all against The good Traditional Catholics, I’m talking about the bad extreme ones, I gather from your comments you are not one of them, The Latin Mass (Tridentine) is great and I think it should be kept, however when someone attacks my religion be it the Mass or a Council, sorry but I get a little put off by that, I mean you no disrespect, please don’t take it as such, I am just upset at the Extreme Trads ot there who hate the “New Mass”. here is another link, there are 12 sections to it:
stjosephplacentia.org/RCath-L/history1.htm

to go to the next section in your address box just change the 1 (after history) to a 2 and so on to #12, it’s pretty interesting. Let me know what you think.

For a further explaination you could try the Vatican site, by contacting someone I’m sure they can and will document everything you would like to know. I gotta go to bed now.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

dizzy_dave:

Hey, I’m not at all against The good Traditional Catholics, I’m talking about the bad extreme ones, I gather from your comments you are not one of them, The Latin Mass (Tridentine) is great and I think it should be kept, however when someone attacks my religion be it the Mass or a Council, sorry but I get a little put off by that, I mean you no disrespect, please don’t take it as such, I am just upset at the Extreme Trads ot there who hate the “New Mass”. here is another link, there are 12 sections to it:
stjosephplacentia.org/RCath-L/history1.htm

to go to the next section in your address box just change the 1 (after history) to a 2 and so on to #12, it’s pretty interesting. Let me know what you think.

For a further explaination you could try the Vatican site, by contacting someone I’m sure they can and will document everything you would like to know. I gotta go to bed now.

No offense taken, Dave. I’m sure we agree on much more than we disagree. I tend to steer clear of those who question the validity of the new Mass. I don’t need their negativity. If the new Mass isn’t valid, our Church is in heap big trouble.

It’s past my bedtime too. Back to the old salt mines tomorrow. Work is the curse of the middle class. :yawn:

 

[dizzy_dave]

Dr. Bombay:

No offense taken, Dave. I’m sure we agree on much more than we disagree. I tend to steer clear of those who question the validity of the new Mass. I don’t need their negativity. If the new Mass isn’t valid, our Church is in heap big trouble.

It’s past my bedtime too. Back to the old salt mines tomorrow. Work is the curse of the middle class. :yawn:

I agree with you, I’m Catholic and I love it. God bless you. Graet exchange!

 

[dizzy_dave]

dizzy_dave:

I’m confused. Tan books has books titled:

• Liturgical Time Bombs of Vatican II
• In The Murky Waters of Vatican II
• Liturgical Shipwreck

What really happened at Vatican II? Here is a quote from the first book I listed:
“…Fr. Annibale Bugnini - before being dismissed by Pope Paul VI under suspicion of being a Freemason - was able to “reform” the Catholic Mass into a constantly evolving liturgy from which the Church gas been suffering since 1969.”

• So who is (was) Fr. Annibale Bugnini?, is this true? How big of a hand did he have in all this?
• What is the true story of Vatican II?, I often hear Fr. John Corapi say “Vatican II was a gift from God, however it and it’s documents are often misquoted.”
• Is there a book that is out there that stands up to this kind of attack on Vatican II?, if so what is the title, and where can I get it? Thank you and God bless.

So does anyone know the story with Fr. Annibale Bugnini, was he dismissed by Pope Paul VI? If so Why?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Dave,

I’ve no information on Fr. Bugnini. But here is an interesting article by Dr. Marcellino D’Ambrosio entitled The Unfinished Business of Vatican II. This article is also published in the December issue of *This Rock *magazine.

VC

 

[otm]

dizzy_dave:

So does anyone know the story with Fr. Annibale Bugnini, was he dismissed by Pope Paul VI? If so Why?

there has been much written about him; he ended up in Iran, if I recall. there have been many attempts by some conservatives to show that he was a Mason. As best I can understand, there has never been any reliable accepted proof of the issue; it is their contention that he was a pivot point for introduction of all sorts of nefarious work eminating from the Masons.

given the whole hearted support of Vatican 2 by both John Paul 2 and by Benedict 16, one would think that it would become a moot point, but conspiratorialists will never let a juicy theory die completely.

 

[VociMike]

dizzy_dave:

What is the spirit of Vatican II, opposed to pro Vatican II ?

Well, to give but one example, the documents of Vatican II say that Gregorian chant is to hold pride of place in the Roman liturgy. The spirit of Vatican II, on the other hand, abandoned Gregorian chant before the ink on the documents was dry.

 

[dizzy_dave]

otm:

there has been much written about him; he ended up in Iran, if I recall. there have been many attempts by some conservatives to show that he was a Mason. As best I can understand, there has never been any reliable accepted proof of the issue; it is their contention that he was a pivot point for introduction of all sorts of nefarious work eminating from the Masons.

given the whole hearted support of Vatican 2 by both John Paul 2 and by Benedict 16, one would think that it would become a moot point, but conspiratorialists will never let a juicy theory die completely.

So I wonder where all these “rumors” come from? Does anyone know IF he was dismissed by Pope Paul VI?

 

[TNT]

dizzy_dave:

So I wonder where all these “rumors” come from? Does anyone know IF he was dismissed by Pope Paul VI?

How about if you get a hold of A B’s own book on the matter?
The Library Index is:
ISBN: ** 0-8146-1571-6**
The Reform of the Liturgy (1948-1975).
I believe he wrote it after being sent to Iran which he admits was an exile for being accused of masonry.
In any case the Liturgical revolution was really not the issue that you titled the thread. It was:
What really happened **during Vatican II
**Regarding that matter, here is one man’s recent opinion in audio.

 

[dizzy_dave]

TNT:

How about if you get a hold of A B’s own book on the matter?
The Library Index is:
ISBN: 0-8146-1571-6
The Reform of the Liturgy (1948-1975).
I believe he wrote it after being sent to Iran which he admits was an exile for being accused of masonry.
In any case the Liturgical revolution was really not the issue that you titled the thread. It was:
What really happened during Vatican II
Regarding that matter, here is one man’s recent opinion in audio.

Thanks. I’ll look into it.

 

[Brian_Crane]

TNT:

How about if you get a hold of A B’s own book on the matter?

I have that book and have read all 928 pages. Maybe I can save you $35. He addresses the charges against him that he was a freemason on pages 91-94.

"Toward the end of the summer a cardinal who was usually no enthusiast for liturgical reform told me of the existence of a “dossier” which he had seen on (or brought to?) the Pope’s desk and which proved that Archbishop Bugnini was a Freemason. The knowledge was communicated with the utmost secrecy, but it then became known that the rumor was already abroad in curial circles. The charge was absurd, a malignant calumny. The weapon chosen for this new attack on the liturgical reform was to bespatter the moral purity of the secretary of the reform.

Hardly a month later the same report began to spread in the press, becoming increasingly persistent and including other individuals as well. The silence of the official organs of the Holy See was interpreted as proff that the “rumors” were well founded.

The Congregation for Divine Worship, of which Bugnini was secretary and wielded tremendous influence, was combined with the Congregation for the Sacraments and he was sent to Iran, on July 11, 1975. The specific charges of the existence of the dossier were made public on November 21, 1975.The Vatican did not deny that Bugnini was a freemason until Oct. 1976 in Osservatore Romano.

Speaking of the dismantling of the Congregation fo Divine Worship Bugnini muses:

What were the reasons that led the Pope to such a drastic decision, which no one expected and which lay so heavily on the Church. I said in the preface to this book that I myself never knew any of these reasons for sure, even though understandably in the distress of the moment, I knocked on many doors at all levels. When the opportunity arose of learning the reasons, I preferred the "discretion that the philosopher says is the outer colonnade of the temple of wisdom.