What say you about 2 Pet. 3:15-16?

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“So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”

Any wisdom or insight you have regarding this passage?

It is sometimes brought up by the *sola Scriptura *camp to prove Paul’s writings were considered Scripture already. While this, if it were true, is far from defending sola Scriptura, is there any comments anyone has on this? Any meaning in the greek?

All I can respond with right now is "Peter here does not claim that the Apostolic writings were considered Scripture…merely that Paul’s were, and to that extent it is not clear which letters of Paul’s he is referring to.

Peter makes no reference to Luke and Mark…who were not apostles, or to the letter of Hebrews whose author is unknown, or to the apostles Jude, Matthew, John, Peter himself etc."

I am debating sola Scriptura a little bit here, and that verse came up.
 
michaelgazin said:
“So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”

Any wisdom or insight you have regarding this passage?

It is sometimes brought up by the *sola Scriptura *camp to prove Paul’s writings were considered Scripture already. While this, if it were true, is far from defending sola Scriptura, is there any comments anyone has on this? Any meaning in the greek?

All I can respond with right now is "Peter here does not claim that the Apostolic writings were considered Scripture…merely that Paul’s were, and to that extent it is not clear which letters of Paul’s he is referring to.

Peter makes no reference to Luke and Mark…who were not apostles, or to the letter of Hebrews whose author is unknown, or to the apostles Jude, Matthew, John, Peter himself etc."

I am debating sola Scriptura a little bit here, and that verse came up.
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While anything enscribed is scripture, that doesn’t automatically mean that it was at the time consciously considered inspired Scripture, otherwise all scribes everywhere would be constantly turning out God’s word.

That speculation issue aside, the verse in question seems to roundly condemn personal interpretation of Scripture and Sola Scriptura in that it shows that you cannot count on the Holy Spirit guiding any old believer to the correct interpretation of “essential doctrine” (whatever that means), as some Protestants claim. The Bible here says that individuals can misinterpret Scripture to their own destruction, which indicates that they can get “essential doctrine” dead wrong.
 
Is the “scripture” in this verse the same greek as in 2 Tim. 3:16?

They often try to connect the two.
 
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michaelgazin:
Is the “scripture” in this verse the same greek as in 2 Tim. 3:16?

They often try to connect the two.
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It’s impossible to know which scriptures are being referred to from the text. That’s precisely why you need an authoritative Church to decide the canon of Scripture, whether for the Old or New Testament.
 
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DeFide:
It’s impossible to know which scriptures are being referred to from the text. That’s precisely why you need an authoritative Church to decide the canon of Scripture, whether for the Old or New Testament.
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Is there any historical document or Bible reference where the word “scripture” is used, and clearly refers to writing *not *considered to be “theopneustos” in 2 Tim. 3:16?
 
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michaelgazin:
Is there any historical document or Bible reference where the word “scripture” is used, and clearly refers to writing *not *considered to be “theopneustos” in 2 Tim. 3:16?
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You bet. During the discernment of which books should be considered inspired during the 300’s.

geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/staplessolascriptura.html

Although, I don’t know how many of the relevant documents will be readily available online.
 
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michaelgazin:
Is there any historical document or Bible reference where the word “scripture” is used, and clearly refers to writing *not *considered to be “theopneustos” in 2 Tim. 3:16?
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Here’s some more info:

The corresponding Latin word scriptura occurs in some passages of the Vulgate in the general sense of “writing”; e.g., Ex., xxxii, 16: “the writing also of God was graven in the tables”; again, II Par., xxxvi, 22: “who [Cyrus] commanded it to be proclaimed through all his kingdom, and by writing also”. In other passages of the Vulgate the word denotes a private (Tob., viii, 24) or public (Esdr., ii, 62; Neh., vii, 64) written document, a catalogue or index (Ps. lxxxvi, 6), or finally portions of Scripture, such as the canticle of Ezechias (Is., xxxviii, 5), and the sayings of the wise men (Ecclus., xliv, 5). The writer of II Par., xxx, 5, 18, refers to prescriptions of the Law by the formula “as it is written”, which is rendered by the Septuagint translators kata ten graphen; para ten graphen, “according to Scripture”. The same expression is found in I Esdr., iii, 4, and II Esdr., viii, 15; here we have the beginning of the later form of appeal to the authority of the inspired books gegraptai (Matt., iv, 4, 6, 10; xxi, 13; etc.), or kathos gegraptai (Rom., i, 11; ii, 24, etc.), “it is written”, “as it is written”.

newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm
 
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DeFide:
While anything enscribed is scripture, that doesn’t automatically mean that it was at the time consciously considered inspired Scripture, otherwise all scribes everywhere would be constantly turning out God’s word.

That speculation issue aside, the verse in question seems to roundly condemn personal interpretation of Scripture and Sola Scriptura in that it shows that you cannot count on the Holy Spirit guiding any old believer to the correct interpretation of “essential doctrine” (whatever that means), as some Protestants claim. The Bible here says that individuals can misinterpret Scripture to their own destruction, which indicates that they can get “essential doctrine” dead wrong.
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The reference is to the false teachers of 2 Peter 2. Peter is not calling sincere seekers “Ignorant and unstable” is he? :eek: “Twisting” is a purposely malevolant act! Read 2 Pet 2. This has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura.
 
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DeFide:
It’s impossible to know which scriptures are being referred to from the text. That’s precisely why you need an authoritative Church to decide the canon of Scripture, whether for the Old or New Testament.
Click to expand...
How do you know the RC church IS the infallible guide?
 
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kaycee:
The reference is to the false teachers of 2 Peter 2. Peter is not calling sincere seekers “Ignorant and unstable” is he? :eek: “Twisting” is a purposely malevolant act! Read 2 Pet 2. This has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura.
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  1. Sincere seekers can be and often are ignorant and unstable to varying degrees. If none are ignorant, why teach?
  2. Twisting, or distorting, or getting wrong does not necessarily imply that it is done with the intent of error.
 
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kaycee:
The reference is to the false teachers of 2 Peter 2. Peter is not calling sincere seekers “Ignorant and unstable” is he? :eek: “Twisting” is a purposely malevolant act! Read 2 Pet 2. This has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura.
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Peter never addresses the sincerity of the seeker. He explains the ignorant, or “unlearned” twist the Scripture…nothing about sincerity. Also, the people who Peter was referring to were in all likely hood not standing around saying, “We are ignorant.” As John Martignoni said, “they were ignorant to the fact that they were ignorant.” No one intends to twist Scripture, and many people do not believe that *their *interpretation was formed from ignorance, therefore not recognizing the twisting done. Furthermore, one can ever know if indeed they are twisting Scripture without an authority higher than themselves.
 
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kaycee:
The reference is to the false teachers of 2 Peter 2. Peter is not calling sincere seekers “Ignorant and unstable” is he? :eek: “Twisting” is a purposely malevolant act! Read 2 Pet 2. This has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura.
Click to expand...
Peter does not directly mention “false teachers.” He says that some of the things in Paul’s letters are twisted by ignorant and unstable interpreters. Ignorance, it seems to me, is not malevolent, and being unstable, may or may not be. If not malevolent, both ignorant and unstable interpretors may be sincere. Sincerity is no guarantee of knowledge or stability.

If sincerity were a guarantee of knowledge of the truth, one would expect sincere interpreters to at least agree on that truth. But some sincere believers in Sola Scriptura interpret Paul’s words about baptism, for instance, as indicating that it is regenerative, while other sincere believers interpret it as a mere ordinance. This is why sincerity and Sola Scriptura are no guarantee of avoiding twisting what Peter tells us is difficult to understand. Thank God we have the Magesterium to authoritatively interpret Scripture in the light of the Apostolic Tradition.
 
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kaycee:
How do you know the RC church IS the infallible guide?
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Infallibility and authority must exist somewhere. You either make yourself the ultimate authority, or you accept Christ’s Church as the ultimate authority.

I believe there is much more evidence to suggest the Church is authoritative as opposed to myself.
 
Peace be with you!

**“However, I know your religion, I have studied it extensively.”

**Hahaha!!! I love it when Protestants say that and then in the next sentance prove they have no idea what the heck they’re talking about. What books has he been reading on the canon of Scripture??? Perhaps these books are published by Chick Publications?😉
Keep up the good work…I know how hard it is to talk to people like this that twist your words to try to trip you up and ask you parts of questions at a time so they can try to catch you in something.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Hello michaelgazin,

I think it is clear from James 2:14 that Peter 3:15 is talking about the sola scripture “faith alone” abuse of St. Paul’s writings of even early day Christians. Protestants use solo scripture of St. Paul’s writtings to throw out Jesus teachings to obey the commandments if we wish to enter into life. St. Paul himself clearly states that God’s commandments are not out for entrance into eternal life (Romans 2:13) (Collosians 7:19). It is the Pharisee created laws and the law of circumsision which is out, **NOT **the importance of Jesus teachings to obey the commandments if we wish to enter into eternal life.

Protestants throwing out Jesus teachings to obey the Law (the ten commandments) if we wish to enter into life because of solo scripture manipulation of St. Paul’s writings is what Peter and James are warning us about. Peter 3:15 is warning us that toward the second coming this will happen so do not follow such evil people to your own spiritual destruction.

Please visit Jesus, What Must I Do To Share In Everlasting Life?

NAB JAM 2:14

My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one, has it? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and no food for the day, and you say to them, “Good-bye and good luck! Keep warm and well fed,” but do not meet their bodily needs, what good is that? so it is with the faith that does nothing in practice. It is thoroughly lifeless.

To such a person one might say, You have faith and I have works is that it? Show me your faith without works, and I will show you the faith that underlies my works! Do you believe that God is one? you are quite right. The demons believe that, and shudder.

NAB GAL 2:15 (One of the solo scripture Protestants confuse St. Paul’s writings pertaining to circumsision to throw out Jesus teachings to obey the commandments to go to heaven.)

Never the less, knowing that a man is not justified by legal observance but by faith in Jesus Christ, we too have believed in him in order to be justified by faith in Christ, not by observance to the law; for by works of the law no one will be justified.

NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

NAB ACT 15:1 (St. Paul is clearly referring to the “law” of circumsision, not the Law of God’s commandments)

Some men came down to Antioch from Judea and began to teach the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” This created dissension and much controversy between them and Paul and Barnabas.NAB ACT 21:20

“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have come to believe, all of them staunch defenders of the law. Yet they have been informed that you teach the Jews who live among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, to give up the circumcision of their children, and to renounce their customs.” NAB PHI 3:5 (St. Paul is speaking.)

I was circumcised on the eighth day, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrew origins; in legal observance I was a Pharisee, and so zealous that I persecuted the church. I was above reproach when it came to justice based on the law. (GAL 6:13)**NAB 1CO 7:19 **(St. Paul is speaking.)

Circumcision counts for nothing, and its lack makes no difference either. **What matters is keeping God’s commandments.****NAB ROM 2:13 **(St. Paul is speaking.)

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; it is those who keep it who will be declared just. When Gentiles who do not have the law keep it as by instinct, these men although without the law serve as a law for themselves. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts. Their conscience bears witness together with that law, and their thoughts will accuse or defend them on the day when, in accordance with the gospel I preach, God will pass judgment on the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
 
**NAB COL 2:20 **(St. Paul is speaking.)

If with Christ you have died to cosmic forces, why should you be bound by rules that say, “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!” as though you were still living a life bounded by this world? Such prescriptions deal with things that perish in their use. They are based on merely human precepts and doctrines. While these make a certain show of wisdom in their affected piety, humility, and bodily austerity, their chief effect is that they indulge men’s pride.
NAB MAR 7:9**(Jesus destroys the law to uphold the Law.)**

He went on to say: **“You have made a fine art of setting aside God’s commandment in the interests of keeping your traditions! **For example, Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and in another place, ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.’ Yet you declare, ‘If a person says to his father or mother, Any support you might have had from me is korban’ (that is, dedicated to God), you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother. **That is the way you nullify God’s word in favor of the traditions you have handed on.” **(MAT 15:7-20) (MAR 7:18-23)
NAB 2PE 3:14 Preparation for the Coming.

So, beloved, while waiting for this, make every effort to be found without stain or defilement, and at peace in his sight. Consider that our Lord’s patience is directed toward salvation. Paul, our beloved brother, wrote you this in the spirit of wisdom that is his, dealing with these matters as he does in all his letters. There are certain passages in them hard to understand. The ignorant and the unstable distort them (just as they do the rest of Scripture) to their own ruin. You are forewarned, beloved brothers. Be on your guard lest you be led astray by the error of the wicked, and forfeit the security you enjoy.
 
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michaelgazin:
Infallibility and authority must exist somewhere. You either make yourself the ultimate authority, or you accept Christ’s Church as the ultimate authority.

I believe there is much more evidence to suggest the Church is authoritative as opposed to myself.
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The catholic church cannot produce an infallible list of ex cathedra papal statements or a list of “Tradition” with a big T, from within what she calls the Word of God. I can know a large portion of what was God Breathed scripture from shortly after the ink was dry on the book of Revelation! The church of believers had them in their possesion the entire time. The council of 397 only formalized it.
 
michaelgazin said:
“So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Maybe this means that people who are ignorant of what Christians have believed since the time of Christ will read Scripture and make it fit their own preconceived notions which will lead them into grave error.:hmmm:

Ok, enough proof-texting from me:p
 
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kaycee:
The catholic church cannot produce an infallible list of ex cathedra papal statements or a list of “Tradition” with a big T, from within what she calls the Word of God.
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She has not, but she certainly could.
I can know a large portion of what was God Breathed scripture from shortly after the ink was dry on the book of Revelation! The church of believers had them in their possesion the entire time. The council of 397 only formalized it.
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That is a nice thought, but I will direct you to this thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=63305
 
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