What should I say to this?

[SnakeMauler]

He went on some rant in another video about how Catholics are "heretical" because they got "justification wrong."

Yes, because he is a strict biblical guy. He believes that if you go strictly by the bible then Catholics are wrong. But let’s not get into that, if you want to argue that point I can’t becaue I don’t know the bible as well as that guy.

For example, if a parent's child was faced (or actually) with the possibly of being absorbed into a crime committing gang or hanging out with people who were extremely bad influences on them, would you allow it to happen, or step in and do something? ... Look at how many times the Isrealites fell away from the Lord in Judges. He still loved them.

Well, see, the difference is that most parents woudn’t KILL their children for being bad.

Let me give you an example. If I had a son and he and I were transporting 10 bags of apples to market on a cart. I tell my kid, “Son, this is very important. Don’t, under any circumstances touch one of those bags of apples.” He replies, “Yes, sir.” So we head off to market and about 10 minutes later the cart hits a bump and one of the bags starts to slip off the cart so he puts his hand on it and pushes it back onto the cart. I see this and my anger burns against him so I pull out my .45 automatic and put a bullet through his skull.

According to the Old Testament this is perfectly acceptable behavoir.

Doubt me? Read about Uzzah in 1 Chronicles 13 and 2 Samuel 6.

9 When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. 10 The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God.

It is even permissable according to the law in the Old Testament for parents to kill disobedient children.

Exodus 21:15 “Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.”

Leviticus 20:9 “If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.”

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.”

God never endorsed rape or anything.

Actually, he did…frequently. Not only that, he caused rapes to happen.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 “When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.”

Notice how it doesn’t say anything aboutt he woman WANTING to be married to one of the guys who killed her family???

 

[SnakeMauler]

Judges 21:10-24

Judges 21:10-24 wrote:10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin." 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.

15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16 And the elders of the assembly said, "With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs," they said, "so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 We can't give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: 'Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.' 19 But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah."

20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, "Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, 'Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war, and you are innocent, since you did not give your daughters to them.' "

23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the girls were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.

24 At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance.

Wow. Rape? "Hide in the bushes and when the girls come, jump out and grab one and carry her off to be your wife…

 

[SnakeMauler]

Numbers 31:7-18 wrote:7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Again?

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 wrote:10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.

Wow, see a pattern here?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 wrote:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Holy ****!!! Can you imagine having to marry the guy who raped you?

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Oh, here we sentence the VICTIM of rape to death. Sounds like mordern day Saudi Arabia?

2 Samuel 12:11-14 wrote:11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight (ie rape them). 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "

13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."
Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." (the child dies 7 days later)

Here God actually causes the rape of David’s wives and kills his baby. I remember the first time I read this story. It horrified me. David sinned but God punishes his wives by having them raped, and kills David’s baby. What kind of sense does that make???

Judges 5:30 wrote:'Are they not finding and dividing the spoils:
a girl or two for each man,
colorful garments as plunder for Sisera,
colorful garments embroidered,
highly embroidered garments for my neck—
all this as plunder?'

Basiclly this was all one guys post and I’m not sure how I should answer. Help! I’m really stuck!

-Snakemauler

 

[JRKH]

To be honest, I’m not sure what you are seeking here unless it is that he is trying to show how bloodthirsty the ancients are and discredit the Judeo/Christian faith.

In short I would suggest taking the approach that everything he is quoting comes from the OT, which is the Old Covenent. We do not Live under the Old Covenent We live under the new.

His reliance on the Old Testament only demonstrates that he knows the stuff is there and not that he understands what it is or why it is there. (as history and historical dvelopment)

It’s difficult to draw any reasonable conclusions based on the understandings and actions of the OT peoples since we have been restored by Christ’s sacrifice which, in essence erases all of the past and makes us new creatures in Love.

Hope some of this helps.

Peace
James

 

[SnakeMauler]

Thanks man. I think one of the main things is, I’ve answered a lot about his questions of faith, and now hes sort of just reverting to ape mode because hes learning things that he never learned in the church. At least, thats what I hope. He was raised Episcopalian, married Catholic to get married, attended a Fundamentalist Christian church for some while, and has now embraced the ideals of nonetheistic Zen Buddhism.

 

[smad0142]

To be honest, I’m not sure what you are seeking here unless it is that he is trying to show how bloodthirsty the ancients are and discredit the Judeo/Christian faith.

In short I would suggest taking the approach that everything he is quoting comes from the OT, which is the Old Covenent. We do not Live under the Old Covenent We live under the new.

His reliance on the Old Testament only demonstrates that he knows the stuff is there and not that he understands what it is or why it is there. (as history and historical dvelopment)

It’s difficult to draw any reasonable conclusions based on the understandings and actions of the OT peoples since we have been restored by Christ’s sacrifice which, in essence erases all of the past and makes us new creatures in Love.

Hope some of this helps.

Peace
James

I am a devout and practicing Catholic, as I assume you are. Trying to make sense of these Old Testament quotes is not an attempt to discedit the Judeo-Chrisitan faith tradition. Furthermore you can not dismiss it by simply saying it is the Old Covenant, because as Catholics we believe that this seemingly violent God of the OT is also the same, loving, and benevolent God of the NT. We really need a good answer for this and i suggest the op submit this to a CAF staff apologist.

 

[OceanMist]

Having been raped and after reading this, I’m disgusted and hurt that these things actually happened… I feel sorry for David’s wives, that hurt not only David, but their own hearts. I can’t imagine how hard it would be for his wives to not be angry at God, or even to not turn their backs on Him.

After reading this… I’m finding it hard to believe that God does sympathize with those who were raped… I can’t imagine being married to someone who did that, or stoned for something that wasn’t my fault, something that I had no control over…

 

[bogeydogg]

Ya’ll we have to be grown ups when dealing with Scripture.

Does God allow the disaster which fell on David’s house? Yes

In the same way that God deliberately killed all of the first born in Egypt.

God is holy and perfect and beyond sin and is right to meet out punishment however he sees fit. BUT notice that when Absalom raped David’s concubines he does so because he has revolted against the King and is violating the laws of God and man in his own free will not because God caused him to do it. God telling David that the result of his sin will be rebellion and bloodshed in his own house is more because God knows the future and sees how David will not discipline his children on matters of sexuality which results in rape and murder among his children and finally open revolt. But God did attach puppet strings to Absalom’s head and force him to do these things. Absalom did it because he wanted to.

As far as the actions committed in Judges remember the running theme of the Book is “the people did what was right in their own eyes.” The people took no thought of God and there fore chaos ruled in the land.

Remember also that in the war against the Canaanites that goes all the way to the Ark when God pronounces a curse because of the perversity of Noah’s son. And when the people come out of Egypt God tells them to eradicate the worship of Ball, Molech and Ashteroth which involved child sacrifice. But it was not specific to just the Canaanites because when the Northern Kingdom fell into that worship, God destroyed them. And when the Southern Kingdom fell into that worship, God destroyed them. And when Assyria worshiped Baal, God destroyed them. And then Babylon worshiped Baal and God destroyed them. One could argues a great deal of the historical outworking of redemptive history is the Lord stamping out this hated religion which murdered children as a rite of worship. And one need only look at how Jesus treated children to see that God would hate such a practice.

So when God tells Israel to kill anyone who pollutes themselves with those of that culture He is doing so to protect Israel because He knows what He will do if they fall into the practice.

And for the guy who says God sanctions rape remember the penalty for it under the Torah is death. Period.

Which by the way was not the custom of the day which viewed rape much more leniently because it viewed women as less than men.

God Bless

 

[bibleguy180]

To be honest, I’m not sure what you are seeking here unless it is that he is trying to show how bloodthirsty the ancients are and discredit the Judeo/Christian faith.

In short I would suggest taking the approach that everything he is quoting comes from the OT, which is the Old Covenent. We do not Live under the Old Covenent We live under the new.

His reliance on the Old Testament only demonstrates that he knows the stuff is there and not that he understands what it is or why it is there. (as history and historical dvelopment)

It’s difficult to draw any reasonable conclusions based on the understandings and actions of the OT peoples since we have been restored by Christ’s sacrifice which, in essence erases all of the past and makes us new creatures in Love.

Hope some of this helps.

Peace
James

Then why do people so frequently refer to Leviticus as proof against gays?

 

[SnakeMauler]

Thanks for the answer bogey, that was great.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

In regard to the rape in Judges, it is in the 21st chapter, which ends, "Jdg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes. " (ESV).

The actions were those of men who were divorced from the will of God. This is a recurring theme in Judges, and a warning against the barbarities that men commit when they do not recognize that God is over them. Rather than support these behaviors, it is evidence that God is opposed to such things.

 

[SnakeMauler]

Ok, how do I defend these?

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 “When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.”

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Zechariah 14:1-2 1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

Thanks,
Snakemauler

 

[SnakeMauler]

Anyone?

 

[SnakeMauler]

Anyone?

 

[Oldtimer_7]

The basic question that confronts us in these passages is where is God in all this. He is on the side of the weak and defenseless. He enjoins His people not to act out of animal lust, but to consider the humanity of the other people. Sadly, as a result of our sin, we cannot come fully to God all at once, so God treats us as a careful gardener treats a plant that needs to be directed in its growth. We are bent a little at a time. And as with people, so with nations.

In our age, such things as forced marriages are distasteful, though still present. Saint Paul spoke of the duties of slaves to their masters, something that was taken up to about 150 years ago to be a defense of the institution of slavery in this country. Sadly, slavery still exists, despite our modern rejection of its Biblical presence.

The point is that worldwide we have changed in many of our practices as a result of Christianity. It did not come as a result of any other religious or moral system of belief. We had to start somewhere and the verses you cite are the beginning point of humane treatment even of the helpless and of the enemy. The challenge, if your opponent wishes to take it up, is to find another system that has done as much.

 

[davidv]

Ok, how do I defend these?

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 “When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.”

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Zechariah 14:1-2 1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

Thanks,
Snakemauler

What needs to be defended?

 

[InspiritCarol]

Having been raped and after reading this, I’m disgusted and hurt that these things actually happened… I feel sorry for David’s wives, that hurt not only David, but their own hearts. I can’t imagine how hard it would be for his wives to not be angry at God, or even to not turn their backs on Him.

After reading this… I’m finding it hard to believe that God does sympathize with those who were raped… I can’t imagine being married to someone who did that, or stoned for something that wasn’t my fault, something that I had no control over…

Oh… please don’t form such quick conclusions about God, or even the Bible.
The stories … especially the OT stories REALLY need to be considered in terms of context, culture and most especially INTENT. This requires a lot of studying and commitment on our part, but the payoff is enormous.

If you don’t think God wants women protected, read Proverbs. Our bodies are sacred. Even more clear, check out the Pope’s first encyclical ewtn.com/library/encyc/b16deuscaritas.htm
These helped me work through some issues.

May God help with your healing.