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Montie_Claunch
Guest
Should prison be soley about the paying of a debt or more about rehabilitation of whatever is up with the person or what? Thanks and God bless.
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stbruno
Guest
Personally, it should be punishment…with labor involved, since the state is now supporting them. But if an education is provided to them, they should take advantage of learning a skill so that they will not resort to crime to support themselves when they leave prison. I also think they should be earning some restitution to be provided to their victims or they should do some community service if they are drug sellers.
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August
Guest
Punishment is part of it, but I think we should have programs in prision so that criminals can go back into society and not harm anyone else. If criminals can’t be rehabilitated, then they should stay behind bars.
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Evan
Guest
O Good. A hypothetical.
I think prisons should be empty and we should all be living holy lives.
I think prisons should be empty and we should all be living holy lives.
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
Why is this an ‘OR’ question. I believe that persons can experience rehabilitation specifically through the action of debt payment.
For prison to provide the greatest good for society, it must also function as a deterrent. People have to desire NOT to go to prison. Therefore, it must be considered something unpleasant.
Those of us who are parents have experienced this first hand. Our children weigh the consequences of their actions, and act accordingly. On occasion, I have specified a ‘punishment’ for a possible, future, evil act. However, that punishment was not severe enough, and the act was done, and the child fully expected to be punished. My punishment did not fulfill its important role of being a deterrent.
I believe that people find value in serving others in a meaningful way. Prisons today seem to fail most of the time at giving this experience to the imprisoned. When I lived in Texas, I used to see prison gangs picking up trash along the highway. That is service to society, that is paying back debt. Too often nowadays, they just sit around further poisoning their minds with Jerry Springer.
Dan
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Bobby_Jim
Guest
Yeah, whatever happened to that. I bet some public works projects could get done at less taxpayer expense if they let prison gangs do some of the unskilled manual labor. On second thought, it’s probably pretty expensive in terms of transportation, security, insurance, etc.
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DaveBj
Guest
Prison should be so unpleasant that once a prisoner is released, he/she would walk on coals before he/she would go back.
Prison should include work in whatever legitimate field of endeavor that the prisoner knows. If the prisoner has caused financial loss through his/her crime, then the proceeds of that labor should go to the victim, and the prisoner should not get out until that debt has been completely paid.
Just a coupla thoughts. I have more where those came from.
DaveBj
Prison should include work in whatever legitimate field of endeavor that the prisoner knows. If the prisoner has caused financial loss through his/her crime, then the proceeds of that labor should go to the victim
Just a coupla thoughts. I have more where those came from.
DaveBj
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maryjk
Guest
They still do pick up trash and cut the grass, where I live.
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abirdrrl
Guest
Let’s see what the Church has to say about it!
The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party. CCC 2266
So a healthy mix of punishment and rehabilitation.
The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party. CCC 2266
So a healthy mix of punishment and rehabilitation.
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Holly3278
Guest
Prison should be both about paying a debt to society and about rehabilitation.
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PauloFreire2
Guest
Work and rehab. Recommitting crime in prison should be very harshly punished. Giving cons all the time they need to sit around and scheme is a no go. They should be working, studying, undergoing rehab, attending church, or sleeping, period.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
From what I read about Japanese prisons, they seem to have the least amount of problems.
From my understanding, their prisons are run by the military in military style. There is no talking between prisoners, unless on work details.
There is no smoking, cable tv, weight lifting, baseball or other sports.
The lights turn on at 5AM. The prisoners must get up, make up their bunks and get ready to go to breakfast. They march to the mess hall in silence and eat, in silence. They are then marched back to their cells. Those not on work details, go into their cells and must sit up(no laying down on their beds). They can read or listen to the radio.
Those on work details get a few more privileges, but the regimentation is strict.
Jim
From my understanding, their prisons are run by the military in military style. There is no talking between prisoners, unless on work details.
There is no smoking, cable tv, weight lifting, baseball or other sports.
The lights turn on at 5AM. The prisoners must get up, make up their bunks and get ready to go to breakfast. They march to the mess hall in silence and eat, in silence. They are then marched back to their cells. Those not on work details, go into their cells and must sit up(no laying down on their beds). They can read or listen to the radio.
Those on work details get a few more privileges, but the regimentation is strict.
Jim
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levi86
Guest
“Paying a debt to society”? this is how “Christians” justify vengeance. How does being locked up repay a debt to society? If a criminal can realistically contribute in correcting the wrong done by his crimes he should, however merely locking them up does nothing to “repay society”.
Imprisonment should be about restoration and rehabilitation.
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mary_bobo
Guest
Sounds good to me. Some types of prisoners cannot be rehabilitated and should stay there PERIOD. There have been stories of prisoners who got educated while in prison and came out to lead productive lives. IMO that is the exception to the rule.
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
Levi,
What you teach seems to be contrary to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Do you believe your views to be in full alignment, or do you believe the Church’s teaching on civil punishment to be in error?
Dan
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levi86
Guest
My views are in perfect alignment with the Catechism. CCC 2266 (as quoted above) clearly states that any punishment should be aimed at "redressing the disorder introduced by the offense”. Therefore, as I stated, punishment should have a practical effect, that is targeted towards correcting (if possible) the damage done by the offender. The CCC does not stae that punishment should be enforced out of vengeance.
Believe it or not the Catechism was not written by neo-cons
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cecilia97
Guest
:clapping:
Driving along I-10 east from Texas to Florida you’ll see work gangs in several states. For my highly opinionated tax dollar, every prison program should include something like that as well as a rehabilitation element.
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
Levi,
May I respectfully challenge that your views are in perfect alignment with the Catechism? They may be, but if they are, then it appears you are not stating your views well enough for me to understand them.
Actually, it appears that you have subtely changed the meaning of the catechism. Here you say ‘any punishment’, as if punishment is optional, but the catechism says ‘Legitimate public authority has the right and **duty to inflict punishment **proportionate to the gravity of the offense.’ Do you accept that punishment is a duty of the state, and is not optional? That is what the catechism appears to teach us. Perhaps you should say “all punishment”; that leaves the reader with the understanding that punishment is indeed necessary and good. ‘Any’ leaves the impression that it is optional.
Secondly, your statement seems to leave out other purposes of punishment. You say “should be aimed”, which is partially true, as the catechism says “should be primarily aimed”. However, by leaving off ‘primary’, you seem to suggest that redressing the disorder is the only aim.
I think you do not fully understand the catechism’s use of the phrase “redressing the disorder introduced by the offence.” Your statement indicates that you believe that the disorder referred to is the ‘damage’ that has been done. Reading further in the catechism, it elaborates on what is meant by redressing the disorder.
It appears that the disorder that must be redressed is not the damage done, but the disorder of the guilty party, i.e. their inclinations towards a disorder. Punishment must have the aim of removing their disorder.
Agreed fully. Our motivations should be to apply punishment for these aims:
Protection of society, otherwise known as “locking up” CCC 2265
Inflicting of punishment proportionate to the crime. CCC 2266
The punishment must have as its primary (not only) aim, the ‘correction’ of the guilty party’s evil tendencies. CCC2266
The other moral aims of punishment mentioned by the Catechism are defending public order and protecting people’s safety.
One interesting thing to look at is all uses of the terms ‘punish’ and ‘punishment’ in the catechism. It becomes quite clear that infliction of some level of discomfort is valid punishment, and truly has as its aim, not vengeance, but the correction of the disorder. That is God’s way.
Sincerely,
Dan
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levi86
Guest
I agree with you that it is the duty of the state to enforce punishment, in that that duty belong to no other authority, however this does not imply that punishment must be enforced in every instance. Surely you would not accuse a judge of defying the Church if he was to pass a suspended sentence under certain circumstances? There are certainly instances in which punishment is not the best way to “redress the disorder introduced by the offence”.
Granted, however by using the word “primary” the Catholicism indicates that any other “aim” is at best secondary in nature, and is ultimately incidental.
I completely agree with you. However I stand by my original comment that merely locking someone up does not correct the disorder of the offender, the re-offence rates in the US should be proof enough of that. To quote my original post “prison should be about restoration and rehabilitation”
I think we agree more on this subject than you think
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
Agreed in principle. Sometimes being found guilty, is punishment enough. This is still ‘punishment’ of a type. The fact that you were convicted is public record. If I were convicted, I would consider the entry of my conviction into public record to be punishment.
Disagree. The catechism lists two other aims, which I referenced in my post. If other aims were truly just incidental, the catechism would have likely said what you indicated at first, that THE aim of punishment was for redressing the disorder. The use of the term ‘primary’ implicitely deems that there are secondary, perhaps tertiary aims as well.
I agree with some of what you say, but it is not complete. You are taking the context of ‘punishment’ from the catechism, and applying it to ‘prison’. Prison should also be very much about protecting us good guys. If this is not an important goal of the justice system, it will fail. Even the catechism says it is a responsiblity. If you were to modify your last statement to be: “Prison should be about protecting individuals from criminals, and punishment should be levied in prison that has as its primary aim, rehabilitation (redressing the disorder)”, I would find no disagreement.
Perhaps, I’m still testing my understanding of what you are saying.I think we agree more on this subject than you think
Dan
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