What started gay conversion therapy?

[St_Francis]

…Please find something Catholic and older than 200 years that discusses marriage as a calling. Your pickings are pretty slim if not nonexistent.

Pope Pius XI—*Rerum Omnium Perturbationem; *(included because altho it is more recent than 200 years ago, it concisely summarizes the situation of St Francis de Sales’ time and the saint’s response.)
What is more, it appears that Francis de Sales was given to the Church by God for a very special mission. His task was to give the lie to a prejudice which in his lifetime was deeply rooted and has not been destroyed even today, that the ideal of genuine sanctity held up for our imitation by the Church is impossible of attainment or, at best, is so difficult that it surpasses the capabilities of the great majority of the faithful and is, therefore, to be thought of as the exclusive possession of a few great souls. St. Francis likewise disproved the false idea that holiness was so hedged around by annoyances and hardships that it is inadaptable to a life lived outside cloister walls.

St Francis de Sales, 1567–1622
When God created the world He commanded each tree to bear fruit after its kind;and even so He bids Christians,–the living trees of His Church,–to bring forth fruits of devotion, each one according to his kind and vocation. A different exercise of devotion is required of each–the noble, the artisan, the servant, the prince, the maiden and the wife; and furthermore such practice must be modified according to the strength, the calling, and the duties of each individual….

It is an error, nay more, a very heresy, to seek to banish the devout life from the soldier’s guardroom, the mechanic’s workshop, the prince’s court, or the domestic hearth.

And of course, there is God, as quoted in Genesis:
Go forth and multiply.

I understand what you are talking about, and I even know that any but the religious life are not properly called vocations. Nevertheless, the single life and the married life can be expressions of following God’s will, and the latter is graced by a sacrament.

However, I also know that the result of the attitude you are discussing was for a long time the idea that those who were not professed religious were somewhat beneath holiness. Did it not occur to those holding that idea that this would lead to discouragement and loss of souls?

 

[St_Francis]

No, I think they should be encouraged in the pursuit of chastity.

Do you think that the APA is encouraging them to pursue chastity? Are there grants for researching how best to maintain chastity? Are there studies comparing long-term outcomes of chaste and non-chaste lifestyles?

By the teenage years it pretty much is set in stone

Right, because if it wasn’t, they “most likely weren’t homosexual… merely engag[ing] in homosexual behavior,” right?

and to have the transition

All along, it has been you and not me who has brought up those suffering from gender dysmorphia. These are two separate situations yet you continue to bring the one in. What, is it currently more popular? More research done? Or what?

and support them is the best solution statistically for their well-being.

Why statistically? If there are two solutions which are helpful, but only one of them has a lot of people involved, it will come out on top, regardless of whether it is objectively the best, no?

So who decides what is best for them? Because this article implies that guiding the patient with SSA through these steps is the way counselors should go:
(1) Identity Awareness. The point when the child or adolescent begins to realize he or she has feelings that are different from others and different from what they have been taught.

(2) Identity Comparison. The individual begins to explore his or her feelings alone and to compare them to the beliefs of society, parents, and peers.

(3) Identity Tolerance. During this stage, the individual will often rebel against his or her feelings and attempt to deny them. After all, nobody wants to be gay in a straight world.

(4) Identity Acceptance. After realizing that sexuality is a part of who they are, they begin to embrace it, explore their feelings and desires, and start to find a place in the world where they are accepted and belong.

(5) Identity Pride. Often involves anger toward parents, society, religion, or other aspects of the world that tells them that they are bad, wrong, immoral, or mentally ill merely because their feelings are directed toward the same sex. They embrace the ‘homosexual lifestyle’ and explore their newfound sexuality. It is during this stage that the gay or lesbian may start fighting against what society has taught them.

(6) Identity Synthesis. The final stage in which homosexuality becomes a part of who they are rather than the defining factor. Instead of being a gay man or lesbian, they begin to see themselves as parents, employees, leaders, teachers, supervisors, coaches, and volunteers who just happen to be gay. In the final stage, they are able to accept themselves more wholly rather than seeing their sexuality as separate from the rest of who they are.

It is Steps 4 and 5 which would be of concern to people. The Catholic solution of considering SSA difficult temptations which must be dealt with as such would, it seems, be a better approach.

Because many groups of people following many different therapies and because many of them have resulted in preventable death of people there should be legal safeguards preventing children from being coerced into it.

I agree that the forms of conversion therapy which are abusive, physically or psychologically, are wrong and should not be allowed for *any *psychological problem, or any other problem, for that matter.

However, I do not believe in outlawing under a term which can be so widely spread is helpful to people with SSA. Outlawing “conversion therapy” would stifle research into non-abusive forms of helping the 1/3 of those with SSA who seem to be able to change, for example, as well as research into causes which might lead to such a therapy, possibly for even more than just the current 1/3.

It is a hard science research question if estrogens in the water are causing it.

Right, so no psychologist can ever think about it because it is “hard science,” but hard scientists probably won’t spend a lot of time on it because possible causes of SSA are outside their field.

It is to protect the welfare of minors, this stuff has seriously hurt a lot of kids.

As I said, I agree that the abusive types of “therapy,” applied for *any *condition, is wrong. However, I would like to point out something which has come up before: if “conversion therapy” is outlawed to prevent minors with SSA from being abused in this way, then all the times similar “therapies” are applied to minors who are suffering from other problems such as addiction or recalcitrance or whatever will *not *be outlawed, so these other children and teens will continue to suffer.

Would it not be better to be more specific and more inclusive?

 

[Rau]

…I agree that the forms of conversion therapy which are abusive, physically or psychologically, are wrong and should not be allowed for *any *psychological problem, or any other problem, for that matter.

However, I do not believe in outlawing under a term which can be so widely spread is helpful to people with SSA. Outlawing “conversion therapy” would stifle research into non-abusive forms of helping the 1/3 of those with SSA who seem to be able to change, for example, as well as research into causes which might lead to such a therapy, possibly for even more than just the current 1/3.

What exactly is it that you understand is / is to be “outlawed”? I assume it is any therapy which has as its goal to change one’s sexual attractions from same sex to opposite sex. * Presumably this would be because the ‘experts’ [including the US Surgeon General, I note] believe there is no scientific evidence that such an outcome is possible as a result of any ‘treatment’, and thus such treatments are likely to be ineffective and potentially harmful.

I would assume that therapy directed to assisting a person to come to a greater understanding of self - which may end up with greater acceptance of SSA, or a recognition that it is in fact not deep-seated at all - is entirely acceptable.

Until the means through which our sexual attractions arise and are directed are determined, I would have thought it is “brave” to declare that:

• sexual orientation can be changed by a therapy;
• SSA is “normal”.

Yet I note that both sides of the debate are (IMHO) guilty of at least one of these “errors”.

I hope that research into the factors which determine sexual attractions is on-going.*

 

[frobert]

What exactly is it that you understand is / is to be “outlawed”? I assume it is any therapy which has as its goal to change one’s sexual attractions from same sex to opposite sex. * Presumably this would be because the ‘experts’ [including the US Surgeon General, I note] believe there is no scientific evidence that such an outcome is possible as a result of any ‘treatment’, and thus such treatments are likely to be ineffective and potentially harmful.

I would assume that therapy directed to assisting a person to come to a greater understanding of self - which may end up with greater acceptance of SSA, or a recognition that it is in fact not deep-seated at all - is entirely acceptable.

Until the means through which our sexual attractions arise and are directed are determined, I would have thought it is “brave” to declare that:

• sexual orientation can be changed by a therapy;
• SSA is “normal”.

Yet I note that both sides of the debate are (IMHO) guilty of at least one of these “errors”.

I hope that research into the factors which determine sexual attractions is on-going.*
From my previous post some might thing what I purpose is contradictory, so be it.

A modest proposal.

The Christian stand on therapy should be

1. Don’t ban any therapies,
2. Protect minors from abusive techniques.
3. Work in coordination with other religions and mental health organizations to develop ethical guidelines* for person oriented therapy and away from goal oriented therapy. That does not preclude therapists working with patients who sincerely wish to diminish or eliminate disturbing aspects of their sexual behaviors.
4. Introduce educational program that promote responsible sexual behavior.
5. Risk reduction programs to reduce the incidence of STDs
6. Accept that it is God’s prerogative to judge not ours.

I can think of a few others but those will suffice for now.

• The Catholic community along with other christian demonstrations and some politicians have condemned the ethical guidelines of the APA on homosexuality. Religions working along with the APA and other mental health associations would lower the damaging rhetoric from both sides and come up with a guidelines that are in the best interests of the people who are suffering from emotional problems.

 

[St_Francis]

What exactly is it that you understand is / is to be “outlawed”? I assume it is any therapy which has as its goal to change one’s sexual attractions from same sex to opposite sex. **
They say they want to outlaw “Conversion Therapy” which by definition has as its goal to change the patients’ sexual attractions from their own sex to the opposite.

I am against this for two main reasons: 1. it will put an end to any research or development if therapies designed to change the patients’ sexual attractions; 2. the wrong part of CT (the abuse) also occurs in other forms of treatment for minors and should be outlawed for them.

I therefore think that abusive therapies of any sort should be outlawed for anyone. I do not think conversion therapy should be outlawed.

Presumably this would be because the ‘experts’ [including the US Surgeon General, I note] believe there is no scientific evidence that such an outcome is possible as a result of any ‘treatment’,

 

[frobert]

They say they want to outlaw “Conversion Therapy” which by definition has as its goal to change the patients’ sexual attractions from their own sex to the opposite.

I am against this for two main reasons: 1. it will put an end to any research or development if therapies designed to change the patients’ sexual attractions; 2. the wrong part of CT (the abuse) also occurs in other forms of treatment for minors and should be outlawed for them.

How can it continue if “conversion therapy” is outlawed?

I too am for against outlawing or banning any therapy and that includes conversion therapy but conversion therapy will not achieve the goals you want because it is not a therapy and is definitely not therapeutic. If an adult wants to change his sexual preferences he can examine the options and freely choose life coaching or conversion therapy regardless of what mental health professionals believe or claim.

What will achieve the goals you want? Earlier I posted a link to of a letter from Freud to a mother of a homosexual. Here is an except from that letter:

By asking me if I can help, you mean, I suppose, if I can abolish homosexuality and make normal heterosexuality take its place. The answer is, in a general way, we cannot promise to achieve this. In a certain number of cases we succeed in developing the blighted germs of heterosexual tendencies, which are present in every homosexual; in the majority of cases it is no longer possible. It is a question of the quality and the age of the individual. The result of treatment cannot be predicted.

Freud did not say a person can not change, what he did say is that “we cannot promise to achieve this.”

There is an implicit and at time explicit promise in conversion therapy to achieve what Freud and the vast majority of health professionals since Freud say “we can not cannot promise to achieve.”

Do you have anything against religions and the APA joining forces and formulating ethical guidelines for therapeutic treatment that will give homosexuals a choice to explore their sexuality and arrive at what they are capable of achieving whether that be change or other accommodations that will help them achieve a more satisfactory life?

 

[St_Francis]

From my previous post some might thing what I purpose is contradictory, so be it.

A modest proposal.

The Christian stand on therapy should be

1. Don’t ban any therapies,
2. Protect minors from abusive techniques.
3. Work in coordination with other religions and mental health organizations to develop ethical guidelines* for person oriented therapy and away from goal oriented therapy. That does not preclude therapists working with patients who sincerely wish to diminish or eliminate disturbing aspects of their sexual behaviors.
4. Introduce educational program that promote responsible sexual behavior.
5. Risk reduction programs to reduce the incidence of STDs
6. Accept that it is God’s prerogative to judge not ours.

I can think of a few others but those will suffice for now.

• The Catholic community along with other christian demonstrations and some politicians have condemned the ethical guidelines of the APA on homosexuality. Religions working along with the APA and other mental health associations would lower the damaging rhetoric from both sides and come up with a guidelines that are in the best interests of the people who are suffering from emotional problems.

This plan seems to take into account a lot of the varied (and valid) concerns that people have.

 

[Thorolfr]

So who decides what is best for them? Because this article implies that guiding the patient with SSA through these steps is the way counselors should go:
(1) Identity Awareness. The point when the child or adolescent begins to realize he or she has feelings that are different from others and different from what they have been taught.

(2) Identity Comparison. The individual begins to explore his or her feelings alone and to compare them to the beliefs of society, parents, and peers.

(3) Identity Tolerance. During this stage, the individual will often rebel against his or her feelings and attempt to deny them. After all, nobody wants to be gay in a straight world.

(4) Identity Acceptance. After realizing that sexuality is a part of who they are, they begin to embrace it, explore their feelings and desires, and start to find a place in the world where they are accepted and belong.

(5) Identity Pride. Often involves anger toward parents, society, religion, or other aspects of the world that tells them that they are bad, wrong, immoral, or mentally ill merely because their feelings are directed toward the same sex. They embrace the ‘homosexual lifestyle’ and explore their newfound sexuality. It is during this stage that the gay or lesbian may start fighting against what society has taught them.

(6) Identity Synthesis. The final stage in which homosexuality becomes a part of who they are rather than the defining factor. Instead of being a gay man or lesbian, they begin to see themselves as parents, employees, leaders, teachers, supervisors, coaches, and volunteers who just happen to be gay. In the final stage, they are able to accept themselves more wholly rather than seeing their sexuality as separate from the rest of who they are.

It is Steps 4 and 5 which would be of concern to people. The Catholic solution of considering SSA difficult temptations which must be dealt with as such would, it seems, be a better approach.

Because of the stigma attached to SSA (although less now than what it once was), for a lot of LGB kids, all the steps above from 1 to 4 or 5 take place in secret. This is because the fear of rejection by parents, family, friends and churches is so great. Although I was aware of my own SSA from the time I was about 12 or 13, I did not reveal this to anyone including my parents until I was 21. By the time many LGB people “come out,” they are already at Step 5. The response of my Baptist pastor was to tell me that I would go to hell if I didn’t change and as a result I didn’t set foot in any church for almost 15 years.

As for telling kids in school that they should be chaste, it usually doesn’t work. Abstinence only sex-education courses are usually not very successful. Telling Lesbian and Gay kids or young adults that baring a change in their orientation, they will have to be celibate for the rest of their lives will also probably not work for most of them.

 

[Rau]

They say they want to outlaw “Conversion Therapy” which by definition has as its goal to change the patients’ sexual attractions from their own sex to the opposite…

In my view, a therapy having such a goal is highly questionable, perhaps absurd, given the absence of understanding of the cause of sexual attraction in the first place.

I am against this for two main reasons: 1. it will put an end to any research or development if [did you mean “of”] therapies designed to change the patients’ sexual attractions…

We need to conduct research ethically. A research program directed to understanding why men (in the main) are sexually attracted to women need not (and ought not) proceed by setting out to change one of them to prefer the same sex.

I believe there is a difference between delivering a program of therapy to a person, and inviting persons to take part in a research study (where the scope of what is acceptable is wider). While there are clearly elements of a research program that should also be rejected as unethical, it is even more clearly the case that:

• similar elements delivered in an approved “therapy” are inappropriate;
• portraying experimentation as therapy is wrong (especially if there are risks…)

Well, that may be their belief. Whether or not it is true now or could be true in the future is up in the air, but this law would cut that off.

It may be harmful to apply a therapy that comes from the premise that sexual orientation can be changed by therapy. There appears to be no sound basis to hold that view. To my mind, to apply such a therapy is rather close to experimentation.

If we outlaw CT, the second outcome [the patient’s understanding of his sexual orientation developing to recognise it is not deep-seated] might become liable under the law, no?

I don’t think so. An extraordinarily poorly drafted law might do that, but should be readily avoidable.

How can it [research into the cause of sexual orientation] continue if “conversion therapy” is outlawed?

Seeking to change orientation might be a means to contribute information towards an understanding of why it is as it is, but it is not the only way.