What to do for a Friend?

[Sanctus]

I have a yound lady who happens to be a very good friend of mine. She was on her way to coming into the Catholic Church last Easter through the RCIA program. Unfortunantly she dropped out. Here’s why…and what do I do now?

At this time I had talked to her just briefly about the Catholic faith and we hadn’t exactly made it in-depth into why IVF is wrong. Her father is a doctor–a fertility doctor–a doctor who practices and specilizes in IVF. She apparently wrote down that her dad is an IVF doctor on a “get to know you” information slip passed out by the deacon at the begining of RCIA. Now instead of talking to her and explaining why the Church is opposed to IVF, the Deacon wrote her an email essentially saying “your father is a murderer.” and included several pictures of dead babies. Now, I see that the deacon has much zeal, but I would have handeled that much differently–like still tell her the whole truth but sit down with her in person and explain why…not just “your dad’s a murderer” and that’s it–no why–no nothing. Now, I subsequently sat down with her and explained the reasons why the Church is opposed to IVF but I don’t think she was as receptive. Now, almost a year later I’ve gotten her to come to Mass with me and she enjoy’s it–she Considers herself “catholic” but what can I or should I do to help her actually become “Catholic”?

 

[vluvski]

How unfortunate that the deacon did not exercise tact in this situation!

If she considers herself Catholic even knowing the church’s teaching on IVF, it seems to me that there could only be one of two things stopping her:

1. resentment toward the deacon over his harsh words
2. fear that her conversion is an indirect condemnation of her father.

If it is the former, maybe she would consider RCIA at a different parish?
For the latter, I can understand her hesitation. As the daughter of a father, I would have a hard time ascribing to a belief that required me to admit his career is morally reprehensible. In this case, time, prayer, and perhaps even a good, honest, open talk with her father would be the best approach.

In both cases, don’t push too hard. Remember physics: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If she is already showing interest, it could be that her journey back is in progress, just not as fast as before.

What a shame that a person’s zeal for respect life issues has pushed someone away from our one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

 

[Della]

You’ve got a harder row to hoe since she was put off by the inconsiderate words of the deacon. Honestly, people who act like him give apologetics a bad name!

It sounds like you are doing all right, though. Just be kind and patient. I don’t think you have to talk her around IVF. She sees it as a perfectly legitimate occupation because he father is in that business, which is only natural. I’d leave that to one side for now and just help her understand other aspects of the faith. Once she understands and accepts the teaching authority of the Church you can discuss the matter again–after a cooling down period. I don’t have to tell you to pray–I will pray with you.

 

[Sanctus]

Thanks for the responses. I think it’s actually a combination of both 1 and 2. I think it took her off guard that someone would be so blunt with her. Also, I think I do need to focus on other aspects of the faith–she seems to have a general knowledge of most areas but still has LOTS of questions–at this time I agree that it’s most important to sure-up her understanding of much larger aspects of the Faith. I actually think she may be SLOWLY re-considering her position on IVF–which is amazing since her father apparently sits on several national boards of medicine. I’d appreciate any more suggestions. Do you think I should talk to the deacon at all?

 

[vluvski]

I think it would be entirely appropriate to mention the situation to the deacon, in a LOVING manner. His heart is in the right place, but he needs to know that his attitude needs tweaking.

Be an example to him of how it is possible to point out wrong-doing and condemn sin without putting people off.

 

[Madia]

First off, please pray a chaplet of Divine Mercy (if possible at the three o’clock hour) for both the deacon and your friend (and also her father) .

If you feel comfortable, apporach the Deacon and tell him what happened. Let him know that while you understand where he was coming from (the horror of IVF), you don’t think his response was very prudent and ended up driving someone away from the true faith rather than toward it. Don’t act out of anger toward the Deacon for his decision, approach him with charity hoping that he sees the error of his way and joins you in helping your friend on her journey home. An apology from him should your friend on her journey home.
%between%

 

[mercygate]

The Deacon slams the girl because her FATHER is a fertility doctor? Is he a permanent Deacon or a transitional Deacon?
If permanent send the letter to that office. If transitional, send it to the formation people.

Office of the Perpetual Diaconate
Diocese of Greater Anyplace

Dear Father Deaconmaker:

I received the attached e-mail (print out photos from links) from Deacon Giant Jackass after attending my first RCIA session. I noted on the get-acquainted questionnaire that my father is a medical doctor specializing in fertility disorders. Deacon Jackass directs the RCIA class at St. Eucalyptus Church in Mytown.

I bring this e-mail to your attention in the expectation that you will agree that however righteous his case may be, he expresses his zeal somewhat injudiciously given the circumstances. I trust you have mechanisms for handling these things and will employ them.

Sincerely,

Ernestine Inquirer

cc: Pastor of St. Eucalyptus
Bishop of Greater Anywhere

 

[Mystophilus]

Sanctus:

She apparently wrote down that her dad is an IVF doctor…the Deacon wrote her an email essentially saying “your father is a murderer.” and included several pictures of dead babies… I subsequently sat down with her and explained the reasons why the Church is opposed to IVF but I don’t think she was as receptive.

What are her views about IVF? The fact that she wrote that her father was “an IVF doctor” rather than just “a doctor” may indicate that she is proud of his work in helping people to have babies. For someone to them condemn that work in such a harsh manner would be a tremendous shock, one strong enough to prejudice all of her subsequent encounters with Catholicism, in much the same way that Afghani Muslims have trouble dissociating Christianity from clusterbombs.

Also, as vluvski said, she may see conversion as indirect condemnation of her father, or she may see it as necessitating future condemnation of her father. She may believe that, if she converts, she will have to oppose him, an action which is unlikely to make her happy.

Now, almost a year later I’ve gotten her to come to Mass with me and she enjoys it–she considers herself “catholic” but what can I or should I do to help her actually become “Catholic”?

She might never be able to if she cannot accept the Church’s views on IVF. I think that it might be worth asking her whether she would like to complete the RCIA, and, if not, why not. Her reason could be emotional (resentment/shock/fear), it could be intellectual (doubt regarding the validity of doctrine), or it could be a combination of the two. It is important to the health of your relationship with her that you both understand how it works, so that you can know what (if anything) to do about it.

Particularly if her reasons are intellectual, they may be insurmountable. Whatever happens, God will continue to love her.

 

[Della]

Mystophilus wrote:

Particularly if her reasons are intellectual, they may be insurmountable.

It’s been my experience that people who can reason can be shown why something isn’t right, but people who have their emotions all tied up in an issue are much harder to bring around. Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Mystophilus]

Della:

It’s been my experience that people who can reason can be shown why something isn’t right, but people who have their emotions all tied up in an issue are much harder to bring around. Or am I misunderstanding you?

You’re not at all, no. If someone has an emotional reaction to something, that reaction can be countered by sufficient positive reinforcement. That is how you train phobics not to be phobic anymore. It’s not always easy, but it can be done. If we assume that the reaction of the individual in question stems only from that one incident, it is a relatively easy emotional reaction to overcome.

The difficulty with intellectual problems is that they tend to be based upon specific, articulated principles. Thus, as you say, they can be shown that something is not right, provided that something is not right. If their arguments are sound, they are unassailable. This is why atheists convert more often than agnostics do.

In my own case, I saw no reason to believe in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. I knew that it had lately become Infallible Doctrine, and I erroneously assumed that the doctrine itself was recent. Upon discovering that my premise was false, and that the doctrine actually dates back to the early C2nd, I had to reconsider my position. I looked at the text, saw that the Greek supported the Perpetual Virginity reading, and had to admit that, were it a purely historical issue, the Perpetual Virginity was the best-supported reading. All of this came because I was basing my assumption on a premise that was demonstrably false.

My position against Infallibility is a much harder one to disprove, because evidence of the human capacity for error only increases over time.

 

[carol_marie]

mercygate,
Loved your letter. CM

 

[mercygate]

carol marie:

mercygate,
Loved your letter. CM

Thanks. Even a year after the fact, Deacon Jackass needs to have this brought to the attention of his superiors. Start the paper trail early. I deal with stuff like this for a living. Trust me, this will not be the only incident in which this guy behaves like a jerk to the detriment of Christian souls.

 

[Sanctus]

Mystophilus:

What are her views about IVF? The fact that she wrote that her father was “an IVF doctor” rather than just “a doctor” may indicate that she is proud of his work in helping people to have babies. For someone to them condemn that work in such a harsh manner would be a tremendous shock, one strong enough to prejudice all of her subsequent encounters with Catholicism, in much the same way that Afghani Muslims have trouble dissociating Christianity from clusterbombs.

Also, as vluvski said, she may see conversion as indirect condemnation of her father, or she may see it as necessitating future condemnation of her father. She may believe that, if she converts, she will have to oppose him, an action which is unlikely to make her happy.

She might never be able to if she cannot accept the Church’s views on IVF. I think that it might be worth asking her whether she would like to complete the RCIA, and, if not, why not. Her reason could be emotional (resentment/shock/fear), it could be intellectual (doubt regarding the validity of doctrine), or it could be a combination of the two. It is important to the health of your relationship with her that you both understand how it works, so that you can know what (if anything) to do about it.

Particularly if her reasons are intellectual, they may be insurmountable. Whatever happens, God will continue to love her.

Though I haven’t brought the topic up with her in the last few times I talked with her–her general sense is that she dosen’t see it being wrong because it “makes so many people happy”–I explained why we see this as a very flawed reasoning for supporting something and I think she’s willing to reconsider–problem is that she seems to get very sensitive when the topic is brought up because of the treatment that she received. From talking to her do I think that she is ready to enter the Church tomorrow–no…but give her a year in a good RCIA program and I think it’d work out. Problem is she needs to get a good handel on the basics of the faith and then have someone–a good priest who may double as a bio-ethicist (I know I’m limiting my options) talk to her or at least talk to me so I can relay that information to her via someone she knows.

BTW–know any priests who would be good to talk to about the bio-ethical implications of IVF and Stem Cell research–Father Pavone I presume?

 

[mercygate]

Sanctus:

Though I haven’t brought the topic up with her in the last few times I talked with her–her general sense is that she dosen’t see it being wrong because it “makes so many people happy”–I explained why we see this as a very flawed reasoning for supporting something and I think she’s willing to reconsider–problem is that she seems to get very sensitive when the topic is brought up because of the treatment that she received. From talking to her do I think that she is ready to enter the Church tomorrow–no…but give her a year in a good RCIA program and I think it’d work out. Problem is she needs to get a good handel on the basics of the faith and then have someone–a good priest who may double as a bio-ethicist (I know I’m limiting my options) talk to her or at least talk to me so I can relay that information to her via someone she knows.

BTW–know any priests who would be good to talk to about the bio-ethical implications of IVF and Stem Cell research–Father Pavone I presume?

I think she should walk into this issue via the back door. Start with a clear understanding of the evils of abortion. Work into the non-contraceptive issue and NFP. IVF seems very remote to the imagination. Once you get a grip on the issues which have immediate impact on people, and that EVERYBODY deals with, the picture takes form and IVF just falls into place.

Fr. Pavone certainly wouldn’t be the person for this, but you could contact Priests for Life and find out what materials they have on this. Fertility/infertility issues are all part of their package – along with the personal grief and self-worth issues that go along with infertility.

Does she have Christopher West’s Good News about Sex and Marriage?

 

[Mystophilus]

Sanctus:

Though I haven’t brought the topic up with her in the last few times I talked with her–her general sense is that she dosen’t see it being wrong because it “makes so many people happy”–I explained why we see this as a very flawed reasoning for supporting something and I think she’s willing to reconsider–problem is that she seems to get very sensitive when the topic is brought up because of the treatment that she received.

You are also going to have to deal with the fact that she is used to being able to make her own decisions about morality, and you are now suggesting that she should give up that right. That is a huge jump, and not an easy one.

BTW–know any priests who would be good to talk to about the bio-ethical implications of IVF and Stem Cell research–Father Pavone I presume?

(I am the last person in the world who should answer a question like this.)