What was God doing before Creation?

[nablaise]

Apparently St. Augustine asked himself this question when he was musing on the seven days of creation.

According to covenantal theology, the ‘seven’ days of creation describe the first covenant of God and man. A kind of primary covenant which is of creation. Not that creation was in seven days, but that by Creating God is making a covenant.
The number ‘7’ always occurs in covenant making. In fact, according to Scott Hahn, in hebrew the word which means ‘to make a covenant’ is equivalent to ‘to seven oneself’.

So what whas God before he created?
what is ‘Time’ really?
Is there a time when time did not exists? Is this possible?
Yet we can not say that creation have always existed.
So I am confortable with the ‘covenant’ idea. It makes sens. It seem to explain the meaning of our creation rather than creation itself.

As about the question, it seem that God can create at anytime since he is always and eternally in the ‘present moment’. HE IS.

But I am strongly interested in hearing your comments or the comments you may have heard somewhere in the communion of the saints.

God bless

 

[masterjedi747]

Is there a time when time did not exists? Is this possible?

No, and no. That’s the easy part.

…he is always and eternally in the ‘present moment’. HE IS.

Right. But He exists outside of time… He has no past or future.

Yet we can not say that creation have always existed.

In a way yes, and in a way no. We cannot say that creation had no beginning… it did, and God caused it to exist. But we can say that there was no “time” before creation… that creation has always existed since the beginning of time.

So what was God before he created?
What was God doing before Creation?

Time began with creation, so… there is no “before” Creation. It’s a bad question.
It’s kind of a huge idea to wrap your mind around, I know… but there it is.

I suppose this is the point where the angels step in and lecture us about trying to completely understand things that are utterly beyond our finite human comprehension…

 

[Benadam]

We can’t even grasp time. We experience creation from a fallen state so we experience fallen time. Relative to our experience, time is fallen. St Augustine explained it this way;

Try to cut a second in half in search of a unit of time. A half second can be cut into half’s, quarter seconds and so on.

Time is not reduceable to a single unit.

When we measure time whatever duration we have chosen to use can’t be applied untill the duration of time is past and no longer exists. we start to measure as soon as the measurement is complete the time measured no longer exists. We measured what it was but can’t measure what it is.

So a unit of time doesn’t exist, it can’t be measured untill it is past and it doesn’t exist for us untill it arrives.

Time is not a part of reality that we can grasp.

It once was but now is not and it is yet to come.

I think maybe if time were something we experienced in reality these questions about God would be graspable even if still mysterious.

 

[MerryAtheist]

Playing solitaire?

 

[Chorister]

It is not necessary for us to understand the concept of time in order to speculate upon what God did before He created as God exists outside the realm of time.

Traditionally, it is held that the three persons of the Trinity always loved each other but wanted even more to love and so God created. Thus, we come about our undersatnding of God’s reason for creation–that He creates out of love.

 

[masterjedi747]

We can’t even grasp time. We experience creation from a fallen state so we experience fallen time. Relative to our experience, time is fallen.

What are you talking about?
Where did Augustine or anyone else ever talk about “fallen” time?

Try to cut a second in half in search of a unit of time. A half second can be cut into half’s, quarter seconds and so on.

Time is not reduceable to a single unit.

Right. But that’s because time is continuous. The same way that a line is continuous in geometry. It has absolutely nothing to do with the our fallen nature… that’s just the way it is.

So a unit of time doesn’t exist, it can’t be measured untill it is past and it doesn’t exist for us untill it arrives.

THAT is the part I remember Augustine talking about. It was somewhat confusing, and I’m really not sure to what extent I actually agree with him… mostly because I didn’t feel like he really gave a satisfactory resolution or presented an alternative, instead he just kept throwing out observations and difficulties… but I definitely do remember that.

Time is not a part of reality that we can grasp.

It depends on what time is. If it’s the measure of motion, and we can grasp motion, then you might be wrong. If we go into more modern speculation, and treat it as a sort of dimension in space/time… I have no idea. But it depends on what time is, which is a discussion somewhat beyond the extent of my current knowledge.

It once was but now is not and it is yet to come.

That’s the part I don’t think I agree with. It never was, is not now, and never will be. We are creatures existing in time, and our perception of time is what it is… it’s not something that changed at the fall, and I doubt it will change very much (if at all) in heaven. :twocents:

 

[Claire_from_DE]

NO, NO, NO!!! You got my mind all twisted up and now I can’t sleep.
Possible answers:

1. He was humming to Himself. Creation didn’t happen until He spoke.
2. He was loving and knowing Himself.
3. He was planning the layout of the plants in the Garden of Eden without seed catalogs.
4. He was figuring out how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.
5. He was deciding if He would believe in humans.
6. He was thinking about the possible consequences of creating woman first.
7. He was knowing which came first - the chicken or the egg.
8. He was enjoying the peace and quiet.
9. He just was.
10. ?

 

[Benadam]

What are you talking about?
Where did Augustine or anyone else ever talk about “fallen” time?

You are entirely right. I should have made it more clear that I was talking about our fallen perception of time.Calling time fallen can be misleading . Not accurate.
Time isn’t fallen, Augustine didn’t talk about that. Our fallen nature perceives time differently. Then again isn’t that what has all of creation groaning? Man’s fallen nature. What God means what man means what creation means what all these mean to each other,Our perception of reality was distorted by the serpent. Satan presented a disordered vision of reality. Because reality to us became disordered we responded to it with desires that were disordered and rebelled. We still suffer this disordered vision of reality and time. So I called it fallen time not that time has fallen.

Right. But that’s because time is continuous. The same way that a line is continuous in geometry. It has absolutely nothing to do with the our fallen nature… that’s just the way it is.

Time is not linear to God. It is a forever present. A
No Augustine was quite plain. He said we cannot grasp time. Then he went on to describe how we treat what we call time but really it isn’t time we are responding too. I can’t remember exactly how he put together the concepts but he concluded we are reacting to the effect of time or something to that effect.

THAT is the part I remember Augustine talking about. It was somewhat confusing, and I’m really not sure to what extent I actually agree with him… mostly because I didn’t feel like he really gave a satisfactory resolution or presented an alternative, instead he just kept throwing out observations and difficulties… but I definitely do remember that.

I don’t know, I came away with an almo0st metaphysical sense of time as the most sublime element of matter.

It depends on what time is. If it’s the measure of motion, and we can grasp motion, then you might be wrong. If we go into more modern speculation, and treat it as a sort of dimension in space/time… I have no idea. But it depends on what time is, which is a discussion somewhat beyond the extent of my current knowledge.

you are making Augustine’s point. " It depends on what time is" If we could grasp time we would not have this problem. Augustine goes on to show that time cannot be dependent on motion. .I can’t remember exactly why but I think it has to do with motion only offering a means to measure time.

That’s the part I don’t think I agree with. It never was, is not now, and never will be. We are creatures existing in time, and our perception of time is what it is… it’s not something that changed at the fall, and I doubt it will change very much (if at all) in heaven. :twocents:

It was…now is not…yet to come.,… Iremember St Augustine isn’t describing the true nature of time but our perception of it. for ‘us’ it was…because it can only be substantiated in any way after it has been …now is not…because we can’t say what a ‘one’ amount of time is.

In Revelation one of the riddles for the beast is he once was but now is not but is yet to come…and the people of the world marveled at this sign.

I connect that with the dragon being thrown down to earth…Jesus saying " I saw Satan fall like lightning"

In the desert after the devil could no longer tempt Jesus it says… The devil departed Him to return at the ‘appointed’ time’

 

[MerryAtheist]

1. He was loving and knowing Himself.

I thought that was a sin.

 

[Alverno]

How do we not know that before our world was created God made other worlds on other planets with other creatures. It is when he made us (in His image), and just under the Angels, that he created us to love and serve Him forever. Perhaps some of the other creatures did not take it upon themselves to love and serve Him. Hence His desire to bring glory to Himself through us. That is what God does. He desires to bring glory to himself. Fortunately He creates from and for Love. He loves us. Too bad we have to deal with the consequences of Adam’s sin, but all choices of free will bring about consequences. Any more questions?

 

[Benadam]

I thought that was a sin.

it is if we love ourselves over everything else.

 

[Cajetan]

What was God doing before Creation?

He was preparing Hell for people who pry into such mysteries.

 

[nablaise]

I heard that one before…

 

[nablaise]

He was preparing Hell for people who pry into such mysteries.

I heard that one before

But don’t you think he was doing it in ‘time’?

When we wonder about this question, I think we realise that what is really the issue is ‘Time’.

I think I agree that we perceve ‘time’ from our fallen state.

Okay. God is outside time. I agree.
But when he creates, doesn’t this mean that he created first time. And this action of creating time wouldn’t mean that there was a time when time was not. Which will send us back to ‘there was time first’. Creation seem to imply there is time first.
In other words, time is the first creation, but it can’t be because if it is it would mean that this first creation was created at a certain point in …time (which does not exists yet… ).

 

[nablaise]

Interesting points have been brought up.

I think real time is the ‘living Word of God’.

If God can create. He can create in a certain time. And this ‘time’ would be a time which he did not created. This is because if this was a created time, it would be itself created in an other ‘superior’ time.
So I think this ‘uncreated ‘time’’ is the ‘living Word of God’.

He is also the one in whom everything was created in.
I think it sounds a kind of distoring to think of ‘time’ as a person. But I think our way of thinking of time as ‘material’ is may be the fallen way of looking at time, the materialistic way.

After all, who else experience ‘time’ other than a person. Only created persons experience time. Even if we see trees growing, or rocks around, I don’t think they experience time.

So this ‘Time’ which IS always. Is Jesus. And from him whenever God wishes he can create something new.

I think the way to measure time shouldn’t about how long it takes to move from point A to point B. But how long something endures or how far something have deviated from truth/beginning/doundation/alpha/Jesus and gone for destruction/corruption.

I think out time is the time of things from the perfect state to complete corruption or recovery.

So from the real eternal time (the beginning, the foundation) God create something perfect from nothing. And some creatures also create out of other things which includes (out of) created time.

I have just spent more than an hour thinking about this. I am getting a little tired…

Many ideas are popping up about the Father creating everything in the Son. I think before creation, the Father is loving the Son and vice versa. And I would say that creation is probably is sort of celebration of their love with each other. Don’t they create to share their love to some other beings…

I guess this is why sometimes we even see women being pregnant in the worst loving atmosphere. May be God want to show a victory to the devil, by making a new being to share his love, probably the love the sinnful creature refused ???

May be the question should be ‘What is God doing before creation’ ?

I think it would make more sens.

 

[BlaineTog]

Playing Guitar Hero. Then he ran out of songs and decided to make humans so we’d come up with more.

(In other words, the question doesn’t really make sense).

 

[Benadam]

I think real time is the ‘living Word of God’.

That’s it. The Father eternally generates Cognizance of Himself.
"Only the Father knows the Son Only the Son knows the Father
The Son is trully generated by the Father a true Son. The model of all generations.

 

[Verisimilitude]

But I am strongly interested in hearing your comments or the comments you may have heard somewhere in the communion of the saints.

God bless

I like the first fifty pages of The Silmarillion as my view of God/time on the First Day but before the 6th Day.

 

[masterjedi747]

Okay. God is outside time. I agree.
But when he creates, doesn’t this mean that he created first time. And this action of creating time wouldn’t mean that there was a time when time was not. Which will send us back to ‘there was time first’. Creation seem to imply there is time first.
In other words, time is the first creation, but it can’t be because if it is it would mean that this first creation was created at a certain point in …time (which does not exists yet… ).

Two things: (1) I think you’re still considering God’s action of creation in a very human way… as if there was a time at which He was not creating. (2) Time was created simultaneously with creation, whether it was the angels or the physical universe.

 

[CollegeBoi1985]

Time is also related to motion, in this way the Unmoved Mover Argument, which is exemplary, was realized by Aristotle and Aquinas.

I think the problem lies not in God or in time but in our ability to conceive of something which exists outside of time. All we have is our small existence which is constantly moving from one state (the past) to another (the future) and we are left in a moment we cannot even grasp (the present). Our existence is dribbled out to us moment by moment but God possesses His existence “all at once.”