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RonWI
Guest
LCMS
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Exporter
Guest
Millardo,
It is the Holy Spirit that allows one to know the true church.
Do you any priests going to gatherings of Protestant trying to convert them? NO!
It IS NOT our job to convince heritics that The Roman Catholic Church is the only correct one. Let God do His work.
It is the Holy Spirit that allows one to know the true church.
Do you any priests going to gatherings of Protestant trying to convert them? NO!
It IS NOT our job to convince heritics that The Roman Catholic Church is the only correct one. Let God do His work.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
Catholics acting like Catholics, acting as if they truly believe what they profess to believe.
Catholics faithful in marriage and open to God’s gift of life.
Catholics abiding by all 10 commandments.
Catholics forgiving those who hurt them.
Catholics approaching the Eucharist as if this were the greatest gift God is offering them on this earth.
Catholics speaking and acting always in charity, in their own families and workplaces as well as outside.
Catholics acting humbly and walking with God.
Catholics tithing their earthly possessions in recognition that these are gifts from God, given to them as stewards only, not as owners.
Catholics placing in political decision making always the welfare of the poor and those without a voice in the premier place.
Catholics who know their faith and witness to the reality of Jesus in every opportunity.
Catholics who don’t drop their religion in the parking lot when they leave Church after Sunday Mass.
Catholics faithful in marriage and open to God’s gift of life.
Catholics abiding by all 10 commandments.
Catholics forgiving those who hurt them.
Catholics approaching the Eucharist as if this were the greatest gift God is offering them on this earth.
Catholics speaking and acting always in charity, in their own families and workplaces as well as outside.
Catholics acting humbly and walking with God.
Catholics tithing their earthly possessions in recognition that these are gifts from God, given to them as stewards only, not as owners.
Catholics placing in political decision making always the welfare of the poor and those without a voice in the premier place.
Catholics who know their faith and witness to the reality of Jesus in every opportunity.
Catholics who don’t drop their religion in the parking lot when they leave Church after Sunday Mass.
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Shibboleth
Guest
9 Commandments - Jesus made it quite clear that the Sabbath is no longer binding.
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Theodora
Guest
There are catholic saints to whom Christ personally reveals himself. This is one of the prayers Jesus told St. Gertrude to pray for the purposes stated. Call it “dicated.” She must have written it down when he was telling her how to pray. I accept the prayer to be true because St. Gertrude has been declared a Saint by the Church.
As you probably might know, Catholics are not bound to believe anything about private revelations. However, I myself do place belief in this prayer and I say it frequently. My reply recommending this prayer was directed to all my fellow Catholics.
May God Bless You.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Patience, kindness, refusal to sling mud in return for mud-slinging, courtesy, complete honesty, refusal to take advantage of their weaknesses, knowledge & understanding of their POVs, the ability to listen to them, and above all, charity.
Dishonesty, ill-temper, mockery, unkindness, and ignorance can do immense harm. A purely intellectual reply, however brilliant, will be no good unless it is backed up by the sort of life that cannot be explained if Catholicism is the godless & false abomination many think it is. Mockery and lying fits that stereotype - a transparently Christian life, does not fit it: and if Catholicism is as bad as some say, there should be no Christ-like Catholics. That kind of Catholic can do more good in one month, than a brilliant apologist with an undisciplined tiongue, a filthy mouth, or a record of dishonesty, can accomplish in fifty years. There is no witness to a faith like that of a really good life.Even if we are not convincing - and these discussions are God’s responsibility, far more than ours - we should be able to strengthen our Protestant brethren in their faith, and they can do the same for us; for they are not our enemies - nor are we trying to defeat them; we are trying to share something, not to preach ourselves, but to honour Christ Whose Name we bear, as do they.
BTW - one thing we can do, is explain Catholic things in Protestant language; a lot of the difficulty comes because we use unfamiliar terms, or the same terms as each other, with different content. Swatting each with the Bible will not win arguments - but we do need to know it, thoroughly. Karl Keating has emphasised this, very rightly too. ##
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MichaelLewis
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What would convince you that Catholicism is mistaken? One would think that everyone should be open to evidence, but it seems that most Catholics on this forum are absolutely insensitive to evidence against Catholicism. (if poll results are any indication)
Perhaps you would say that this is a matter of faith; but non-Catholics could make the same claim. Isn’t any conversion away from a religion evidence of a lack of faith? If faith is a virtue, why isn’t any conversion a vice?
Isn’t it hypocritical to expect others to critically evaluate their faith with an open mind, when you refuse to do so yourself?
(This isn’t directed toward those Catholics who are open to evidence against Catholicism; though I wonder if by definition they would be ‘faithful’ Catholics.)
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STIOFAN
Guest
I agree with Maria G, the Holy Spirit will lead people to the truth, and the Spirit works through the people.
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st_felicity
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I’ve never seen evidence contrary to Catholicism…I’ve seen unsubstantiated claims, and twisted personal interpretations, and revisionist histories…but never “evidence” that contradicts Catholicism as the Church that Christ founded and passed on through apostolic succession…
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MichaelLewis
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But the question is, if strong evidence were presented to you, would you be willing to evaluate it in a fair-minded, impartial way and leave Catholicism if it did seem like good evidence? Would you ask Protestants and other non-Catholics to be more fair-minded than you are willing to be?
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st_felicity
Guest
I feel safe in saying yes (although it would have to be incredibly compelling and not just “seem like good evidence”). What your hypothetical suggests doesn’t exist. I left Protestantism because of the true evidence of the Catholic Church.
Really, it’s not about being “fair-minded”, it’s about being open to listening to the Holy Spirit and having the humility to act on it.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
An excellent question - thanks for asking it; somebody should. However - what element, or part, or details in Catholicism, have you in mind ?
Faith in what, and conversion to what ? Both are relative terms - faith in the goddess Isis or in the almighty dollar would probably not be regarded as good by any Christian 
IOW, faith is good or bad according as it is faith in a good or bad person or thing. And so with conversion.
As for conversion from a religion - not necessarily. It’s impossible to give an answer that would apply to everyone - some Catholics first encounter Christ for real only once they have left the CC. OTOH, had they stayed in the CC, they might have done so. The problem is, that such questions as these are ultimately unanswerable, because they leave out God - and that is never a good idea. For the activity of God has a way of upsetting our all-too-tidy solutions to questions. ##There are lot of moral, theological, historical, logical & Biblical objections to Catholicism: many are objections to any form of Christianity.
However, it is sometimes unwise to discuss difficulties and objections in a public forum, because of the risk of scandalising people; of making them stumble in their walk with God.As for “critical evaluation” - the notion of doing this to one’s faith, though in principle a very good idea, may well strike some people as a very bad one; not because they are hypocrites, but because it may seem to be an impiety to do so; much as detailed study of the process which gave us the Bible impresses some people as an impiety.
What we are discussing in both cases is something with divine authority, therefore - some may conclude - not to be meddled with. If something is immensely important to one, it may not be easy to think about in a detached way.
This is the difficulty with a religion which is both human and Divine - its very status as Divine can put the human elements in it outside the reach of those who want to consider those elements in detail.
IMHO, there are no “faithful” or other adjectival Catholics - there are simply Catholics. ##
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MichaelLewis
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Gottle wrote:
But if faith is not generalized, it seems to amount to a double standard. What are you praising when you praise faith? Isn’t faith (Biblical faith, I mean; C.S. Lewis had a better, but I think non-biblical conception that could be generalized, but must Christians don’t seem to be talking about his kind of faith.) believing things of a religious nature or acting as if one believed those things with a greater degree of certainty than is warranted by the evidence? Suppose you were to confront a Mormon with strong evidence against Mormonism, (for instance). They respond to your challenge by appealing to their duty to have faith. How could you criticize this move? (How could they justify not having faith, from their own perspective?) To respond that their faith is not a virtue because it is not faith in what is true, is to miss the point of faith, isn’t it? If faith is only a virtue if it is faith in what is true, then one’s first duty seems to be to establish impartially what is true to the best of one’s ability. But once one has established what is true given one’s best judgment of current evidence, what role does faith have?
cont…
I didn’t have anything specific in mind, I just wondered if the poster’s beliefs were falsifiable. It would be nice if the adherents of all belief systems were ready to give up their beliefs upon due consideration. If everyone were willing even to talk about the kind of evidence that they would accept as a disproof, (which entails making one’s self vulnerable to refutation) common standards of reasonable evidence might emerge. That would be conducive to constructive discussions of religious differences.
terms - faith in the goddess Isis or in the almighty dollar would probably not be regarded as good by any Christian IOW, faith is good or bad according as it is faith in a good or bad person or thing. And so with conversion.
But if faith is not generalized, it seems to amount to a double standard. What are you praising when you praise faith? Isn’t faith (Biblical faith, I mean; C.S. Lewis had a better, but I think non-biblical conception that could be generalized, but must Christians don’t seem to be talking about his kind of faith.) believing things of a religious nature or acting as if one believed those things with a greater degree of certainty than is warranted by the evidence? Suppose you were to confront a Mormon with strong evidence against Mormonism, (for instance). They respond to your challenge by appealing to their duty to have faith. How could you criticize this move? (How could they justify not having faith, from their own perspective?) To respond that their faith is not a virtue because it is not faith in what is true, is to miss the point of faith, isn’t it? If faith is only a virtue if it is faith in what is true, then one’s first duty seems to be to establish impartially what is true to the best of one’s ability. But once one has established what is true given one’s best judgment of current evidence, what role does faith have?
But otherwise they create a false impression. What if Christianity were only sustained because most Christians thought to themselves: “I’m not sure about Christianity, but most of these other folks seem to be; so it is probably true. They must know something I don’t. Still, I’d better not express my doubts, otherwise I’ll scandalize the few other Christians who are as uncertain as I am.” If doubts are unfounded, isn’t it better to get them out in the open and dispatched?
cont…
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MichaelLewis
Guest
cont…
But they would presumably ask others to do so, wouldn’t they? Given that a Mormon believes Mormonism is true, isn’t it just as impious for her to critically evaluate her faith?
Thanks,
Michael
to one’s faith, though in principle a very good idea, may well strike some people as a very bad one; not because they are hypocrites, but because it may seem to be an impiety to do so; much as detailed study of the process which gave us the Bible impresses some people as an impiety.
But they would presumably ask others to do so, wouldn’t they? Given that a Mormon believes Mormonism is true, isn’t it just as impious for her to critically evaluate her faith?
True enough. But shouldn’t we all do so anyway, especially if we ask others to?
Thanks,
Michael
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