Whatever happened to heretics?

[SpiritFire]

Hi.

Not sure where to post this.
I am really having a hard time with Nostrae Aetatae.
It just seems against Tradition, the Fathers and the Bible.
This is what I’m getting from it (haven’t read it extensively)

All religions lead to heaven.
Allah = God
It’s okay to think of Jesus Christ the Son of God as only a great prophet.
The moslems believe in the Virgin Mary and the True God, so they are righteous in His sight. They’re all good. No need to bother with them.
The Church ESTEEMS Moslems (Definition of Esteem : Respect and ADMIRATION)
It’s okay to follow your religion, you’ll get to heaven if you’re sincere.
Nobody follows a heresy, is heterodox, or is a heretic.
There is no need to convert these people anymore?

Whatever happened to heresy and heretics, or even subtle heterodoxy which both Jesus and the Fathers of the Church seemed always quick to condemn?

What happened to the straight and narrow? the ONE Church? Unity is not being a massive pudding of all religions.

Besides all this, Protestant influence on the Church in America is devastating our identity and destroying all depth of theology, orthodoxy and practices (in the liturgy).
What is REAL Ecumenism?

 

[laszlo]

Hi.

All religions lead to heaven.
Allah = God
It’s okay to think of Jesus Christ the Son of God as only a great prophet.
The moslems believe in the Virgin Mary and the True God, so they are righteous in His sight. They’re all good. No need to bother with them.
The Church ESTEEMS Moslems (Definition of Esteem : Respect and ADMIRATION)
It’s okay to follow your religion, you’ll get to heaven if you’re sincere.
Nobody follows a heresy, is heterodox, or is a heretic.
There is no need to convert these people anymore?

You had to forget the dream of the past that the whole world is Catholic, and the Church dictates the thinking and the morals for everyone. This was in the medieval eves, but regardless if we think if i was good or bad, it is the past.

The Muslims with their morals are much much better then the atheist are or people on their own morality re; and we shall esteem it. The alternative is, that we (by our taxes) support the atheism (e.g. by bombing the Muslims) .

Also you must understand that we are not in position to convert the Muslims or followers of any other religions. Bombing them does not helps. We had to set our priorities and concentrate of the real enemy: the atheism, the greed, the lack of self control and so on.

 

[TomD123]

You had to forget the dream of the past that the whole world is Catholic, and the Church dictates the thinking and the morals for everyone. This was in the medieval eves, but regardless if we think if i was good or bad, it is the past. The whole world being Catholic would be idea but that goal is not going to happen anytime soon.

The Muslims with their morals are much much better then the atheist are or people on their own morality re; and we shall esteem it. The alternative is, that we (by our taxes) support the atheism (e.g. by bombing the Muslims) . **This is debatable. Atheists do not have morals in general because they don’t believe in God but Muslims have a very currupt moral system. They stone adulterers, kill unbelievers, suicide bomb, etc. I don’t understand how we support bombinb Muslims, we never bomb muslims unless we are at war with a particular group/Country who happens to be Muslim, no one supports bombing Muslims just b/c they are Muslims. **

Also you must understand that we are not in position to convert the Muslims or followers of any other religions. Bombing them does not helps. We had to set our priorities and concentrate of the real enemy: the atheism, the greed, the lack of self control and so on.
True, bombing is not good but who suggested it? And the real enemy IS ISLAM. There are many enemies to morality but false religion is ONE OF THEM! Especially Islam because they deny Christ, they are expanding, and they have a very currupt system of morality. As Christians, we must do what we can to convert them, not by force though. This for the ordinary person who does not encounter many Muslims involves mostly prayer for their conversion, and the conversion of all non-Catholics for that matter

 

[TomD123]

Hi.

Not sure where to post this.
I am really having a hard time with Nostrae Aetatae.
It just seems against Tradition, the Fathers and the Bible.
This is what I’m getting from it (haven’t read it extensively)

All religions lead to heaven.
Allah = God
It’s okay to think of Jesus Christ the Son of God as only a great prophet.
The moslems believe in the Virgin Mary and the True God, so they are righteous in His sight. They’re all good. No need to bother with them.
The Church ESTEEMS Moslems (Definition of Esteem : Respect and ADMIRATION)
It’s okay to follow your religion, you’ll get to heaven if you’re sincere.
Nobody follows a heresy, is heterodox, or is a heretic.
There is no need to convert these people anymore?

Whatever happened to heresy and heretics, or even subtle heterodoxy which both Jesus and the Fathers of the Church seemed always quick to condemn? This is the exact question many devout Catholics ask themselves today and it is the main problem within the Church

What happened to the straight and narrow? the ONE Church? Unity is not being a massive pudding of all religions.

Besides all this, Protestant influence on the Church in America is devastating our identity and destroying all depth of theology, orthodoxy and practices (in the liturgy).
What is REAL Ecumenism? Real ecumenism whent away when VII theologians decided to make it mean basically that all religions are equal and the only need for ecumenism is to make sure there is no fighting betwen religions

I agree with this post . The Church should NOT ESTEEM ANY FALSE RELIGION, THIS IS IDOLATRY. I am not saying persecute the religion or destroy their things, but we cannot hold it in high esteem. You are right, Jesus said I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. so all religions are not a path to heaven. The Great commission still applies and true Catholics would still push for conversions of all people including Muslims.

 

[ZDHayden]

I was taught that a heretic is someone who KNOWINGLY does not follow the Truth, i.e, the Catholic Faith. Someone who has been exposed to Catholicism in a personal way and refuses to follow it.

There is a difference between saying all religions lead to heaven (which I don’t think is the point) and saying that people in non-Catholic religions, because of the Mercy of God might end up in heaven.

laszlo - how many times have we disagreed? That’s quite alright. You speak your opinion and support it with good reasoning, far, far better than the emotional dribble commonly heard today. I respect that. That being said, I have to disagree in part.

Yes, there will be no possible way for all people to become Catholic. It does not follow from that that we should stop trying. If within Catholicism is the best way to achieve heaven, then we still have the duty to try to get as many people as possible to conversion.

To be honest, I do not see how bombing Muslim countries has anything to do with Church teaching in this regard.

 

[SpiritFire]

Thanks for the reply! That helps a little.
quote/
Also you must understand that we are not in position to convert the Muslims or followers of any other religions

What do you mean by that? I think we can stand, firm in our True Faith and not compromising it, as the sole Pillar of Truth and proclaim the Gospel of the Christ and the salvation of the world by that Christ, who IS GOD and do away with the heresy of his prophet-hood.
Not shove it down their throats. Not to “convert” them, not to compromise the Faith. Just to be Us, so that the world sees us and knows the One Way to Salvation - Jesus.

 

[laszlo]

True, bombing is not good but who suggested it? And the real enemy IS ISLAM.

The bombing and the serious deprivation of their rights made the Islam our enemies.

Since the time of St Pius V (Lepanto) there was a well maintained balance between the Islam and the Christianity. The Christianity lost her strength not because of the Islam, but from inside against the modernism.

We must understand that that we are limited beings, we can concentrate only on a few things. If we fight the Islam, we let to govern us those who are among us, and who deprive us from our basic rights, like the religious education of our children (without paying for that twice), like our rejection of the homosexuality, like the equality of spreading information and so on.

This was the teaching of the aggiornamento: understand that the word changed around us, and to accommodate ourselves to this changes.

 

[SpiritFire]

John 14:6

“I am the way, the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME”

Gee, that’s kinda authoritative, isn’t it? Especially coming from the Son of God!

How can this be reconciled with VatII “Ecumenism”?
By the way, I do think Vatican II was a good thing. (But it was never implemented: That’s the problem)

Defending the Truth will (most likely) produce some type of fighting. Period. If there is no problem, how can we know we hold all the Truth?

 

[laszlo]

John 14:6

“I am the way, the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME”

It becames authorative only if you misinterpret the meaning, and tries to force yourself and othets that Jesus redeemed only you and those who think like you.

Jesus defined the limits of the above statement

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

Yes. The muslims too, the hindis too, the buddhist too. All things.

 

[Barbkw]

Ecumenism as explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/e.htm

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

**818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 **

**Sacramental bond of the unity of Christians **

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[Barbkw]

**Toward unity **

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

• a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280

• conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”;281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;

• prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'282

• fraternal knowledge of each other;283

• ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284

• dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285

• collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

855 The Church’s mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity.357 Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects."358

1636 Through ecumenical dialogue Christian communities in many regions have been able to put into effect a common pastoral practice for mixed marriages. Its task is to help such couples live out their particular situation in the light of faith, overcome the tensions between the couple’s obligations to each other and towards their ecclesial communities, and encourage the flowering of what is common to them in faith and respect for what separates them.

 

[Joe_5859]

First, we should grant that, even when a Church document seems to contradict Tradition and Scripture (and, to a lesser extent, the Church Fathers), it does not. Therefore, we should do as you have admirably done in this thread and seek greater understanding of what is being said.

Second, I would really recommend reading the document for yourself, if you have not already done so. A whole lot of websites out there like to talk about the documents of Vatican II and they post articles full of cherry-picked quotes. Reading that stuff is not a good way to get an accurate picture of the document. The best way is to read it: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html. It is obscenely short (only 5 paragraphs). You can probably read through it in less time than it takes to read through this thread.

Third, I would say that we do not read this document (nor any Church document) in a vaccuum. We cannot expect every Church document to re-articulate everything that has come before it. There is simply no need. The purpose of the document is to articulate the relationship of the Catholic Church towards other religions in the present age. The mandate Christ gives us to evangelize is never revoked. The Church has not forgotten this. (That’s why, for example, the Third Ordinary General Synod of Bishops in 1974 and now the upcoming Thirteenth General Synod of Bishops in 2012 both address evangelization.) But that does not mean the Church – at this moment in history – is going to take the same approach towards other religions as it has in the past. There’s no change in doctrine, merely a change in pastoral approach.

Fundamentally, Nostra Aetate is simply trying to affirm the good that it sees in other religions in order to foster a better relationship with them. It’s not that much different than what St. Paul did at the Areopagus. People tend not to respond well to being told they are heretics who will be cast out and suffer eternally in hell! Unless they want to be Catholic. In that case: Welcome!

I think our evangelization efforts are helped by Nostra Aetate’s approach of identifying the points of agreement. If we can first identify the common ground we share, then it makes it easier to converse with those of other faiths. It also encourages them to look at Christianity with openness if we first extend to them the same courtesy. The Truth has more power to convict than any of us individuals do. If we take an overtly confrontational, we’re-right-and-you’re-wrong-nanna-nanna-boo-boo approach, they would understandably ignore anything we have to say. It’s hard to evangelize in an atmosphere of hostility.

 

[SpiritFire]

Joe 5859 and Barbkw, thank you so, so much! You are both very right.
(Although I will say that Barbkw’s post dealt with inter-Christian unity while Nostra Aetate (I spelled it correctly this time) deals with Non-Christian religions)
It’s all good, though
Again, maybe I should read Nostra Aetate.
I haven’t read anything anyone has ever wrote about it. I just read only the first part.

Again, thanks for providing some actual Church documents. Although I have read these things, one needs to be reminded!

 

[Loyal_J]

Church law number 1364 says that formal heretics are excommunicated. That’ll have to do instead of burning.

But the conditions for actually getting automatically excommunicated are high. They’re in canon (church) law numbers 1321-1323. For example they have to know it’s an excommunicable act to get excommunicated and they need proper use of their reason.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I was taught that a heretic is someone who KNOWINGLY does not follow the Truth, i.e, the Catholic Faith. Someone who has been exposed to Catholicism in a personal way and refuses to follow it.

There is a difference between saying all religions lead to heaven (which I don’t think is the point) and saying that people in non-Catholic religions, because of the Mercy of God might end up in heaven.

laszlo - how many times have we disagreed? That’s quite alright. You speak your opinion and support it with good reasoning, far, far better than the emotional dribble commonly heard today. I respect that. That being said, I have to disagree in part.

Yes, there will be no possible way for all people to become Catholic. It does not follow from that that we should stop trying. If within Catholicism is the best way to achieve heaven, then we still have the duty to try to get as many people as possible to conversion.

To be honest, I do not see how bombing Muslim countries has anything to do with Church teaching in this regard.

A heretic is one who teaches error. One who follows error is merely a heterodox.

 

[PJM]

=SpiritFire;7854344]Hi.

Not sure where to post this.
I am really having a hard time with Nostrae Aetatae.
It just seems against Tradition, the Fathers and the Bible.
This is what I’m getting from it (haven’t read it extensively)

All religions lead to heaven.
Allah = God
It’s okay to think of Jesus Christ the Son of God as only a great prophet.
The moslems believe in the Virgin Mary and the True God, so they are righteous in His sight. They’re all good. No need to bother with them.
The Church ESTEEMS Moslems (Definition of Esteem : Respect and ADMIRATION)
It’s okay to follow your religion, you’ll get to heaven if you’re sincere.
Nobody follows a heresy, is heterodox, or is a heretic.
There is no need to convert these people anymore?

Whatever happened to heresy and heretics, or even subtle heterodoxy which both Jesus and the Fathers of the Church seemed always quick to condemn?

What happened to the straight and narrow? the ONE Church? Unity is not being a massive pudding of all religions.

Besides all this, Protestant influence on the Church in America is devastating our identity and destroying all depth of theology, orthodoxy and practices (in the liturgy).
What is REAL Ecumenism?

IT MAY BE A BIT SICKLY? …but

THIS FORUM AND MILLIONS OF INFORMED AND FULLY PRACTICING CATHOLICS ARE STILL LIVING AND LOVING OUR FAITH.

“Like the poor” who sadly will always be with us; so too the POOR IN SPIRIT shall remain. That is WHY “Hell is a lot more spacious than heaven”

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.

2 Luke 13:24
Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.

3 Matthew 7:14
How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

So the issue seems to be. not where are they; [50% of self-professed catholics] voted in support of the Democrat Platform of Death and Gay Unions! That’s heresy and a Mortal sin too.

What we need to do about it seems more of the issue to be addressed with prayer and urgency. Amen

God Bless,
pat/PJM