What's meaningful about giving us freedom to choose between good and evil?

[Thomas_Jennings]

I ask because, according to many theists God is the soul desire of all people…therefore a choice for evil equates a incorrect attempt to grasp the desired as opposed to someone actually preferring oblivion to joy. Is the choice between people smart enough to find the right way and the people who get it wrong through stupidity or mental sickness where they mistake violence as being alright, for instance? Surely God isn’t a sort of Headmaster awarding those who can work out how to do it the right way over the dunces? No one, if they knew God’s nature, would choose against Him surely? So why is it important enough to have created this temporal Universe, to give Man the opportunity to set about getting his desire/presumably God, the wrong way? How is that a preference? That’s surely like giving me the freedom of choice as to whether I want (and I do, just so you know) a series of Doctor Who DVDs…but then I go to the garden centre through ignorance or delusion and can’t pick up the DVDs! That wouldn’t be me really making a choice about what I want, rather than simply making a dumb decision of how to get it. God surely didn’t set this whole free will thing up on that basis…that people don’t get what they’d actually like to choose because they can’t see the truth!

 

[grannymh]

I ask because, according to many theists God is the soul desire of all people…therefore a choice for evil equates a incorrect attempt to grasp the desired as opposed to someone actually preferring oblivion to joy. Is the choice between people smart enough to find the right way and the people who get it wrong through stupidity or mental sickness where they mistake violence as being alright, for instance? Surely God isn’t a sort of Headmaster awarding those who can work out how to do it the right way over the dunces? No one, if they knew God’s nature, would choose against Him surely? So why is it important enough to have created this temporal Universe, to give Man the opportunity to set about getting his desire/presumably God, the wrong way? How is that a preference? That’s surely like giving me the freedom of choice as to whether I want (and I do, just so you know) a series of Doctor Who DVDs…but then I go to the garden centre through ignorance or delusion and can’t pick up the DVDs! That wouldn’t be me really making a choice about what I want, rather than simply making a dumb decision of how to get it. God surely didn’t set this whole free will thing up on that basis…that people don’t get what they’d actually like to choose because they can’t see the truth!

Genesis 1: 26-27.

The universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 1730
**1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
​

 

[truetofaith]

Most people, especially when young, choose what they think is good…sex, drugs, rock& roll, Maybe even shoplifting, fighting - to show superiority, etc.

As we grow older, we learn that this not what will get us to Heaven, & turn our lives around.
Of course, some people never change or don’t even think or care about God & say they don’t believe in Him.
Our job is to teach these people, so they can make the right choice. God doesn’t want to force Himself on anyone…all must choose!

 

[Antegin]

Most people, especially when young, choose what they think is good…sex, drugs, rock& roll, Maybe even shoplifting, fighting - to show superiority, etc.

As we grow older, we learn that this not what will get us to Heaven, & turn our lives around.
Of course, some people never change or don’t even think or care about God & say they don’t believe in Him.
Our job is to teach these people, so they can make the right choice. God doesn’t want to force Himself on anyone…all must choose!

And don’t forget to pray and sacrifice for the conversion of sinners.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Love cannot be taken, it can only be given. Since God desires for us to love him, it is necessary that we are capable of choosing to love him. If we are capable of choosing to love him, then we are likewise capable of choosing not to.

On your point about gaining or losing salvation through ignorance, I think you are misrepresenting what is meant by that. God’s laws are written in our hearts, no one is truly ignorant of them. We have an innate understanding that murder is wrong, or that rape is wrong, or that stealing is wrong, etc. Through our own actions we can deaden our consciences to the point that we no longer acknowledge the wrongness of these actions, but that doesn’t change the fact that we know they are wrong. On the other hand, if there is a person who has no knowledge of God, or who’s understanding of God is so malformed that they cannot believe in what they know of him; but that person lives their lives by their innate conscience, then we can have a reasonable hope that they will be saved.

On another note, your analogy is lacking a few key components. The Doctor Who DVD’s do not call out to you, and also exist in a limited quantity. There will eventually be a point where the DVDs are unobtainable due to limited supply. God, on the other hand, is limitless, as is his mercy and willingness to forgive anything we do against him should we only ask. A better analogy would be if there are these Doctor Who dvd’s, and they’re constantly reprinted and always available everywhere. I chose not to look for them or go anywhere that they are on sale, and as such never get a copy. I am to blame for that failing, not the dvds.

 

[marymary1975]

Its meaningful because if we would have the ability to choose then God would be a dictator. We would be like animals or robots, and we would be forced just like in a dictatorship regime. That is not what God wants because love induced by force is not real love. God wants us yo love him for real and to be able to do that you need to have the freedom to choose that love.

 

[KP3243]

It’s meaningful because animals obey natural law with no choice where man and angels are higher creatures and are given a choice to love God.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

I found a blogger who has given this considerable more thought than I have read in detail. I was able to read #5, #6, #7 and it seems to follow the Catholic teachings about the Tree of Eternal Life, and knowledge of good and evil. However, it has more opinions than I have heard in sensible ways that helped me understand how the devil got domain illegally, and how Christains become the Tree of Eternal Life through the Eucharist. Since this does not appear to be approved by The Church I find the information valuable, but not a primary meal for us. Here is an excerpt

Today I want to expand on verse 5 in Genesis 3. This verse has some profound truths written in it, that I believe we need to understand. This verse is Satan, the symbolic serpent speaking to the mind of Eve. If you didn’t know the serpent was a symbolic representation for a spiritual being, then you need to read my blog, “Was There a Talking Snake in the Garden?” Many times people overlook what Satan says because he is called the father of lies and they don’t realize that Satan will use the truth, if he thinks it will work to his advantage. Satan actually knows more truth than you do, that is why he can lie so well. Here are the words of Satan spoken to the mind of Eve as a thought:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan is of course very presumptuous to think that he knows what God knows. I do believe that God taught Satan everything that Satan knows, however, I do not believe that God taught him everything that God knows. I think people need to learn that lesson, if they don’t learn anything else in this blog. We then see a statement that declares that their eyes would be opened. I would hope that you could see that Satan was not speaking of their physical eyes, but Satan was referring to their spiritual understanding. Here is a scripture from the New Testament which speaks to us along these lines:

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Our spirits have the ability to see, perceive or as it says in this verse to understand. To see with our spirits is the ability of our spirits to understand the spiritual truths being spoken to us. The term is repeated to us in this verse “to know”. Isn’t that what Satan said to Eve? Satan told Eve that they would “know” good and evil. So what does this Hebrew word translated as “know” mean? If you have been reading my blogs you already understand the answer to that question. To “know” something is a covenant term. To know something represents an intimate sexual knowledge. God uses this same Hebrew word when He describes “Adam knew his wife and she had a son”. To “know” someone is to be in covenant with that individual. So what was Satan telling Eve? According to the wording and the underlying meaning, Satan said to Eve you will be just like God, in covenant with good and evil. I know I probably lost several readers with that statement, but if you keep reading in the chapter you will see that God did not contradict that statement, but He actually confirms it. You see if this was a lie or a deception of Satan, then God had the opportunity to confront the lie when He was talking to each of the participants after Adam had sinned. But, never do you see any confrontation or rejection of that statement in the chapter discourse. As you continue in the chapter you actually see that God confirms what Satan said to Eve in verse 22:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

:agapegeek.com/2010/01/12/gen-35-you-shall-be-as-god-knowing-good-and-evil/

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

More:

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

You can see from this statement a very powerful spiritual truth being revealed to us. Jesus is telling us that Satan did not enter into our world legally. He took advantage of Adam and Eve and entered in the world that God had given to them by deception. Jesus is calling Satan a thief that has robbed someone of something that didn’t belong to him. Jesus was also contrasting His presence on the earth as being legitimate, while Satan’s presence on the earth as being illegal. You see God could not come to the earth the same way that Satan did and just take back everything that was given to Adam, without being called a thief and become just as guilty as Satan. So we can see a puzzle being revealed to us. Jesus says whoever enters into the world by the door is legitimate. So what is this legal door into this world? It is only being born here by a natural woman that has given birth to you, and that makes you legally here. You have to be a direct descendent of Adam and Eve to be here legally. God is so very tricky and smart. God knew that He could come into the world and pay for our salvation, if He came as a son of Adam. So we have a man that was born into this planet that was both 100% man and 100% God and this was legal. So I got off track giving you some insight into Satan’s illegal entry and God’s legal introduction into our world. So let’s go back to Genesis and look at this covenant relationship.

What are the spiritual implications given to us from what we just learned? A Bible covenant relationship represents a marriage in the eyes of God. So Adam became married to Satan. Whatever God had given to Adam now belonged to Satan. After Adam’s death, Satan had complete control of it all. A converse truth was whatever Satan had now belonged to Adam, and that was really not a good trade. Adam was originally created to know only good, the things that God had provided for him. But now whatever happens to Satan will happen to Adam and vice versa. Fortunately for us, God had a plan of salvation that would destroy the works of the devil and make a separation from all the consequences that Satan now faces in the future. As soon as the prophesied 6000 year time table of Adam’s dominion is up, Satan will be cast out along with those who are now in covenant with him. The time is very short, and Satan knows his time of reigning on this earth is almost ended and guess why he is so very angry with the church. Lucifer who was once second only to God himself will not enjoy his eternal destiny.

agapegeek.com/2010/01/12/gen-35-you-shall-be-as-god-knowing-good-and-evil/

 

[fred_conty]

What is meaningful about this freedom?

It is simply a part and parcial of our very nature, without which we would not be human. It defines us. Without it we are not human. We must have it…that is what is meaningful about it.

The way we are made we must have that. We can see this in our everyday life. When we go to a car lot to buy a car, we must chose a car. The same at the grocers, we must select canned vegtables or fresh ones. Should we take the newpaper or not? We look at neighborhoods before selecting our home. We chose a bank to do our buisness with. What gift will I select for a birthday? Almost everything we do involves a selection or a choice. We cannot get away from it.

The same holds true in our life of morality. Do I use Abc or not? Do I pick up the tip left for the waiter? Do I pay for the merchandise? Do we give a fair wage to our employees? Should I give my neighbor a friendly call or a piece of my mind? Do I return the dress I borrowed or keep it? And so on.

We are virtually nothing but choice machines…it is our life to chose, without which we don’t function and are completely different.

And so that is what makes us to be like God and makes it possible for us to become his adopted children, because we can chose to be like God … good … or not. We don’t exist without choice.

We are not really given freedom, but rather made with the ability to chose…it is us.

The argument goes that wouldn’t it be better if we were not free in the sense that God “forced” us to be good so that we will go to heaven. The fact is force and freedom are opposites. God would not force us to chose since he made us with the power to be free. If he did, it would be contrary to our nature which he made, and contrary to what he intended.

We are what we are because of freedom…and that is meaningful.

 

[Flopfoot]

In my thread about how I thought hell didn’t make sense one of the posts suggested that if we ever met God face to face we would automatically love him, and since God wants us to choose then he can only show himself to us “through a veil”. So that would suggest that the OP is correct, when men fail it is not 100% our fault since we were not given perfect information about who or what we were supposed to love.

 

[truetofaith]

In my thread about how I thought hell didn’t make sense one of the posts suggested that if we ever met God face to face we would automatically love him, and since God wants us to choose then he can only show himself to us “through a veil”. So that would suggest that the OP is correct, when men fail it is not 100% our fault since we were not given perfect information about who or what we were supposed to love.

You want better information than…Jesus suffered & died in our place on a cross!

What else do you want Him to do to show how much He loves us WOW!

 

[MrSnaith]

In my thread about how I thought hell didn’t make sense one of the posts suggested that if we ever met God face to face we would automatically love him, and since God wants us to choose then he can only show himself to us “through a veil”. So that would suggest that the OP is correct, when men fail it is not 100% our fault since we were not given perfect information about who or what we were supposed to love.

This suggests that full fault requires perfect information. Why must this be so?